Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

[Red Baron Farms]

You think an irony meter and a dog laughing is a good substitute for a published scientific study? Seriously? After we already established you main objection to HM is the connotation to to term "holistic" because some other unscrupulous people misused the term? Exactly how much woo are we here at JREF supposed to put up with?

 

[Reality Check]

...snipped irrelevant stuff....

My questions actually were, Red Baron Farms:
* Why are the blogs supporting HM (the anecdotes you like) not propaganda?
* Why are you taking about something called "desertified land" (IOW define "desertified land", how can we tell the difference between that and overgrazed or degraded land?)?
* Was Gabe Brown's ranch "desertified land"?
* Were all of the trials done using "desertified land"?

Also:
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

 

[Red Baron Farms]

My questions actually were, Red Baron Farms:
* Why are the blogs supporting HM (the anecdotes you like) not propaganda?
* Why are you taking about something called "desertified land" (IOW define "desertified land", how can we tell the difference between that and overgrazed or degraded land?)?
* Was Gabe Brown's ranch "desertified land"?
* Were all of the trials done using "desertified land"?

It is a propaganda blog if it uses propaganda. Whether it actually supports or criticizes HM has no bearing on the matter. Have they purposely tried to sway public opinion by misleading them? If yes, it is propaganda. It most certainly is possible to criticize HM without using propaganda. I have my own criticisms of HM. But I wouldn't try to purposely mislead in order to do it. It's a key difference. You for example used propaganda. You purposely tried to mislead people with the previously noted logic fallacy involved with the connotation of an equivocation.

Desertification is a type of land degradation in which a relatively dry land region becomes increasingly arid, typically losing its bodies of water as well as vegetation and wildlife. Farming most certainly can cause desertification. Gabe brown most certainly is in a relatively dry region and the land was very deteriorated. But his land is only a part of a larger region. On his land he has reversed the desertification process, but it isn't enough. There needs to be a region wide change. His results are published, by USDA, but not by a science journal. That's what I said from the start. So by the strictest use of the term, it would be anecdotal until the results are published in a science journal. However, as a USDA case study, many professional scientists have reviewed the evidence, and are even collecting the evidence. This may not be a formal "peer review" in the sense of a science journal, but it is roughly equivalent. So if you insist on saying it is "anecdotal" evidence, then you need to qualify that statement with "strong", so as not to mislead people into thinking it is unscientific woo.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

...many professional scientists have reviewed the evidence...

Yes. Even in studies that are rejected, "many professional scientists" review the evidence. That's why they toss them out. Do you really not know this?

 

[Reality Check]

It is a propaganda blog if it uses propaganda.

So the blogs you personally decide use propaganda are propaganda blogs.
And if I decide that all of the anecdotes that you cite are propaganda then they are propaganda also, Red Baron Farms ?

And lying about me using propaganda is not good, Red Baron Farms, .
I pointed what you should know - the science is mixed, there is no evidence that HM is better than standard good practices, the Savoy brittleness scale is a subject and quite secret scale, the very obvious fact that the plural of anecdote is not data, etc.!

You are just guessing that Gabe Brown's ranch was "desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

You are just guessing that all of the trials were on"desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Yes. Even in studies that are rejected, "many professional scientists" review the evidence. That's why they toss them out. Do you really not know this?

Of course I know that. But They are not rejecting what Gabe Brown is doing or the evidence it is working, they are teaching others how to do it too. They wouldn't do that if there wasn't strong evidence. And of course there is strong scientific evidence as well as strong anecdotal evidence. I have given you examples of both.

So the blogs you personally decide use propaganda are propaganda blogs.
And if I decide that all of the anecdotes that you cite are propaganda then they are propaganda also, Red Baron Farms ?

You are just guessing that Gabe Brown's ranch was "desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

You are just guessing that all of the trials were on"desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

Not even close. No where near standard land management. It may be soon..... Seeing as how USDA, land grant university extensions, and private consultants are all actively educating people about soil health and how to obtain it. But standard now? No.......... Not even listed on GAP/BMP yet. How many 2,000 acre farms do you think don't use any nitrogen ferts on their corn? Most farmers still think it is impossible!

 

[Reality Check]

But They are not rejecting what Gabe Brown is doing...
...snipped usual irrelevant stuff...

Scientists in general have not been presented with any evidence that what Gabe Brown is doing has anything to do with HM:
Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

Every scientist in the world is not working on Gabe Brown's ranch !
The fact that some scientists are collaborating with Gabe Brown does not mean that
* these scientist] think that HM works - they could be waiting to analyze the results as any competent scientist should (no prejudged conclusions).
* that HM works just because a few or even a dozen scientists believe that it works.

As for HM itself: Holistic management

One limitation of any land management system is that economically and politically powerful users can easily quantify and argue their needs. It is harder to define the economic value of ecosystem services and, therefore, the ecosystems and people most dependent on them for their subsistence become voiceless and often neglected users. In theory Holistic Management framework addresses this issue, but it is not always seen in the field.[28] Another common criticism of holistic planned grazing is that while farmers and ranchers around the world believe that it works for them and they have even received awards,[2][40][41][42][43] the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal.[44][45]

Easy way to test whether a large number of range scientists support HM is to list the papers about HM, Red Baron Farms, and see they are in the hundreds or more as a widely supported method should be.
Or are the papers about HM from a small group of range scientists?

Actually that is one thing missing from this thread, Red Baron Farms: a single post listing the papers for and against HM. All I have seen is a handful of papers, not the hundreds that I expect.

 

[Reality Check]

My expectation is that Savoy's HM should be at least as good as existing land management techniques for the simple reason that it looks as if existing land management techniques are a core part of HM.
Rotational grazing - good (a bit surprising to me that US ranchers seem to just grasping this concept).
Soil management - good.
Vegetation management - good.
Water management - good.
Insect management - good.
etc.
From my limited knowledge of farming this is all standard land management here in NZ. So I have no problems with any claim that HM can improve land quality. In fact my comment about those claims would be: well Duh!

This is what I would expect standard land management would be in the US.
But Red Baron Farms if your opinion is that US ranchers are incompetent enough that standard land management is not commonly used ("No where near standard land management") then so be it.

USDA, land grant university extensions, and private consultants should be educating ranchers about good, verified land management practices if only because people take up ranching for the first time. Teaching even long-time ranchers about good, verified land management practices is a good idea.
But hosting a few web pages and YouTube videos about HM anecdotes is not education - it is covering their bases at best, propaganda at worst.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Sure it wouldn't NECESSARILY mean the results were better than standard BMP. But then again, if they were not better, then they wouldn't have invited Gabe to speak at the National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health.

News Release

Opening Sessions of the National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health

Watch opening sessions of the National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health, held on Tuesday, Feb. 18 in Omaha, Nebl, and broadcasted live to 230 locations across the country as part of the Cover Crops and Soil Health Forums. Speakers include USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) Chief Jason Weller; Howard G. Buffett, of the Howard G. Buffett Foundation; and Ray Gaesser, an Iowa farmer and president of the American Soybean Association. Following them is a panel of farmer leaders, including Dan DeSutter (Indiana), Dave Brandt (Ohio), Clay Mitchell (Iowa) and Gabe Brown (North Dakota).

 

[Reality Check]

Were all of the farmers invited because they performed better than standard BMP

But then again, if they were not better, then they wouldn't have invited Gabe to speak they wouldn't have invited Gabe to speak at the URL="http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/ne/newsroom/releases/?cid=STELPRDB1246813"]National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health[/URL].

Nice propaganda, Red Baron Farms
And a bit of a fantasy - there is no scientific evidence that Gabe's results are better than standard BMP. You have presented no evidence that this was the reason that he was invited to this conference.

Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

ETA: Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?
All I can find is what looks like standard "cover crops can be integrated with livestock operations". Integration that is decades old here in NZ.

P.S.Red Baron Farms
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

 

[Red Baron Farms]

ETA: Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?
All I can find is what looks like standard "cover crops can be integrated with livestock operations". Integration that is decades old here in NZ.
P.S.Red Baron Farms
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

You have cognitive dissonance? You post it is standard decades old there in NZ. Then post you need evidence? What part are you missing? You don't believe it is practiced down there? Or you do believe it is? Or are you still caught up in petty word games like Skrut?

In USA it is not standard procedure to graze cover crops. Nor is it standard to raise cover crops in 4-20 species blends. But to do both...raise cover crops in multi species blends, and also include them in a grazing rotation, is nearly unheard of until the Brown Ranch started doing it, the NRCS got wind of it, Scientists measured the positive effects, and then the technique was promoted by the USDA SARE/NRCS. It is still not the standard BMP here in USA. But I am glad to hear you NZers are decades ahead of us.

But don't get too big headed. The Aussies are even further ahead of both you and us. They skipped the planting of cover crops altogether and use perennials.

But there’s more to it than just cropping. Introduce some herbivores to that same paddock, after the crop has been harvested, and the nutrient cycle really starts to get interesting. By using Holistic Management techniques of herbivores like cattle or sheep, the biomass and available nutrients of that pasture builds even faster. Which means the topsoil, in turn, also builds at a rapid rate.

Anything that actually builds topsoil (and there’s not many agricultural systems that do) is sequestering carbon. Meaning pasture cropping is, on top of everything else, a carbon sink technique. Which is in marked contrast to agriculture as we know it.

So, to summarize hugely on what is a complex and exciting subject; pasture cropping builds topsoil while simultaneously producing a grain crop, improving a perennial pasture and also feeding up some livestock and sequestering carbon while the system is at it. Not bad for one paddock! Why pasture cropping is such a Big Deal

 

[Reality Check]

You have cognitive dissonance?

You have total lack of reading comprehension?
I mention that

All I can find is what looks like standard "cover crops can be integrated with livestock operations". Integration that is decades old here in NZ

IOW the subject of Gabe Brown's presentation is (as far as I know) well established agricultural science here in NZ.

Before that I ask for evidence about Gabe Brown's presence at the conference .
Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?
Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?

After that I ask the questions that you have been avoiding for days or weeks :
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

 

[Reality Check]

In USA it is not standard procedure to graze cover crops. Nor is it standard to raise cover crops in 4-20 species blends. But to do both...raise cover crops in multi species blends, and also include them in a grazing rotation, is nearly unheard of until the Brown Ranch started doing it, the NRCS got wind of it, Scientists measured the positive effects, and then the technique was promoted by the USDA SARE/NRCS.

More unsupported assertions:
Please provide the evidence for
* the Brown Ranch was one of the first ranches to grow multi species cover crops for grazing in the US.
* NRCS "got wind of" the Brown Ranch results.
* then the technique was promoted by the USDA SARE/NRCS (conference presentations and anecdotes hosted by them is not "promotion, it is acknowledgement) based on the Brown Ranch results. For example list the USDA SARE/NRCS educational programs that are promoting this technique based on the Brown Ranch results.

USDA SARE/NRCS does have material "promoting" multi species cover crops for grazing as drought relief, e.g. in Idaho

 

[Reality Check]

Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?
He planted "several years of a diverse cover crop mixture containing legumes, tap roots, and more." And it looks like his cattle graze the cover crops on rotation.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?
He planted "several years of a diverse cover crop mixture containing legumes, tap roots, and more." And it looks like his cattle graze the cover crops on rotation.

See how fast it spreads? I can name several more that took Gabe's example and went with it if you like. And they didn't wait for a published scientific paper either. Watching their neighbor's success was enough. The scientists will catch up to us farmers eventually

 

[Reality Check]

Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results

See how fast it spreads?...)

That was not the question, Red Baron Farms, so I will state it so that it can be added to the growing list of question you are unable to answer:
Restatement of "Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?"

Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) started using multi-species cover crops with grazing several years before 2012. This implies that he started using this technique before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
The Gabe Brown YouTube videos and couple of conference web pages seem to be since 2012.

ETA: They are almost neighbors - Mandan and Bismarck are 8.5 miles apart.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

That was not the question, Red Baron Farms, so I will state it so that it can be added to the growing list of question you are unable to answer:
Restatement of "Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?"

Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) started using multi-species cover crops with grazing several years before 2012. This implies that he started using this technique before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
The Gabe Brown YouTube videos and couple of conference web pages seem to be since 2012.

ETA: They are almost neighbors - Mandan and Bismarck are 8.5 miles apart.

You answered your own question? The whole region is having the same problem. In fact the whole country is. It is a result of conventional agriculture here in USA. So when a farmer makes a significant breakthrough, the neighbors are the first to know. From there it spreads. Eventually the scientists will catch up, but it is not scientists that developed it. Gabe did. Since it is repeatable, why wait for the published paper in a science journal? By then many of his neighbors would have lost their farms, like Gabe almost did. Necessity is the mother of invention. Ask yourself this. That area has been experiencing droughts. So when one farmer gets a crop, and all his neighbors fields are stricken by the drought, don't you think they'll be asking what Gabe was doing real fast? something like: "Hi Gabe, couldn't help but notice we had only 1 inch of rain this year so far but you managed a good crop anyway without irrigation. How is that possible?" Gabe replies, "Come take a look at my soil...."

But of course this is all anecdotal. The scientists haven't "proven" it yet. Bumblebee fallacy all over again!

 

[Reality Check]

The whole region is having the same problem. ...

That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.
It is reasonable that Ken Miller heard rumors about the Gabe Brown results because they live relatively close together. But Ken Miller started using a diverse cover crop for grazing several years before 2012 (around 2007?). That could be before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.
It is reasonable that Ken Miller heard rumors about the Gabe Brown results because they live relatively close together. But Ken Miller started using a diverse cover crop for grazing several years before 2012 (around 2007?). That could be before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

Ken started traditional no till in 2001 on 250 acres in irrigated
crops and 128 acres in dryland crops. He also had only 2 paddocks for grazing on 1000 acres. So he was operating pretty close to standard BMP. Even a bit progressive by US standards of the time with the no till. But his results were not good. Then he learned about HM and has split his grazing into 38 paddocks and plans on splitting them even more. He also started cover crop mixes on the cropland for forage in 2006. He is now converting them to pasture.

Ken is staff (grazing specialist) at the Burleigh County Conservation District and so is Gabe.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.
It is reasonable that Ken Miller heard rumors about the Gabe Brown results because they live relatively close together. But Ken Miller started using a diverse cover crop for grazing several years before 2012 (around 2007?). That could be before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

Ken started traditional no till in 2001 on 250 acres in irrigated crops and 128 acres in dryland crops. He also had only 2 paddocks for grazing on 1000 acres. So he was operating pretty close to standard BMP. Even a bit progressive by US standards of the time with the no till. But his results were not good. Then he learned about HM and has split his grazing into 38 paddocks and plans on splitting them even more. He also started cover crop mixes on the cropland for forage in 2006. He is now converting them to pasture.

Ken is staff (grazing specialist) at the Burleigh County Conservation District and Gabe is (or was) a supervisor there. They both use Holistic management and I am sure they talk! In fact they give talks together!

The Burleigh County Experience:
Sustainable Cropping and Grazing Systems based on
Soil Health
NORTH DAKOTA SOIL HEALTH
CENTER OF SUSTAINABILITY
PREVIOUS MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS......CURRENT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS
Fragmented management......................Holistic management Focused on symptoms (erosion).............Soil health focus
High impact/mechanically tilled systems...Low impact/no-tillage systems
Low diversity cropping systems..............High diversity cropping systems
Non-integrated cropping/grazing systems.Integrated cropping/grazing systems
Mismanaged segregated rangeland..........Rangeland/cropland integration
Decreased bio-diversity........................Increased bio-diversity
Diminished water quantity/quality...........Improved water quantity/quality
High use of petroleum based products.....Low use of petroleum based products