America and Guns,

newyorkguy said:
You're still not getting this. I'm not proposing anything new. I'm referring to maintaining the restrictions that EXIST NOW. What do handgun owners do now when they travel out-of-state? This is what the NRA recommends:



Are you suggesting it should be legal to carry a handgun anywhere in the United States to avoid inconveniencing travelers? :confused:
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We're actually agreeing, I think our lines are getting crossed.

I was under the impression that you were advocating gun laws be by county, and that's what I was questioning, but only because of a particular annoyance. One that I'd live with.
 
Polaris said:
How very "Anti-Saloon League".
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Just the opposite. The Anti Saloon League wanted and temporarily got the outlawing of the sale of all alcohol. Smoking restrictions don't outlaw tobacco they regulate it. I'm not for banning all guns; I know that's not realistic. I want to see the regulation of the ownership of guns, make them harder to buy and force responsibility on the owners.
 
newyorkguy said:
You're still not getting this. I'm not proposing anything new. I'm referring to maintaining the restrictions that EXIST NOW. What do handgun owners do now when they travel out-of-state? This is what the NRA recommends:
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Which restrictions, exactly? The NRA recommendation isn't a restriction, but rather a piece of advice that recognizes the patchwork of disparate restrictions that "exist now".

Is that patchwork the thing you want to maintain?
 
newyorkguy said:
Just out of curiosity, are you two 'arguing' rhetorically, or are you handgun owners/carriers who ARE inconvenienced when you travel? If the latter, how do you do it?
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Legally, as far as you know.

I recently had to travel extensively back and forth between Minneapolis and Missouri, mostly by flying. I carry at all times, so I confirmed with the airline the procedures on how to transport my firearms. I also confirmed with 2 other sources the proper procedures: locked solid case, unloaded, to be accessed by key and the key had to remain on me. The ammunition doesn't have to be locked. Upon arrival to the airport, the case and gun will be inspected prior to boarding.

The first time I traveled, I was terrified because I knew the stigma was going to be a problem. I wasn't surprised when the woman at the airline counter gasped and looked me up and down before running to grab a supervisor. The supervisor gave me a tag to attach to the case and refused to inspect the firearm. Instead, she took me to security, who also refused to inspect the firearm- instead, I was to take the firearm out, put the ammunition in my carry on and then put the tag inside the locked case... then I was to hold onto the key for the locked case (I objected to taking the firearm out, but they insisted I could not travel unless I took it out and showed it to them- they weren't checking to see if it was loaded, they didn't seem to know how). They then ran my case through an xray scanner, which set off an alarm while I was standing there. The attendant for the xray scanner asked me if I had notified my airline I was going to be traveling with a firearm. I explained I was given a tag and put it inside the case. Arriving, at my destination, my firearm was on the luggage carousel with everything else.

Every single time I traveled, the experience, procedures, and treatment was a weird variation of that: don't put the tag inside, do put the tag inside, don't have the ammunition in your carry on, do have the ammunition in your carry on, you can't have a full box of ammo, you can only have a full box of unopened ammo, pick up your firearm at the security office, and pick it up off the carousel (one time I spent an hour trying to track down my firearm), no problem with traveling with a weapon and on one occasion: "you cannot fly this airline with a firearm unless you are a LEO" (she had already assumed I was and when I overheard her talking to another coworker and calling me a LEO I politely corrected her). A manager had to resolve that one as well.

Traveling by airline with a firearm got to be so bad that I just bought another firearm and kept a cache at each travel location.

Traveling by car is a completely different experience. Police officers are cordial and friendly (even if they are jerks for writing me a ticket). When I inform them that I have a permit to carry and have a firearm on my person they thank me and could give a crap. One said "good for you" in a non-sarcastic way. For the purposes of this trip, I was only traveling through states that have reciprocity with the state in which my permit was issued.

I don't travel to states or businesses that don't recognize that right or have told me that they don't want my business. I would assume that I would stop at a rest stop prior to the state line, unholster and lock my weapon in the trunk, and hope that nobody sees me and assumes the worst.

When I first got my carry permit I would always leave my firearm in my car by unholstering and locking it in my trunk (I wore a holster that was outside the waistband and very visible). To me, this was the most dangerous and stressful time- not because I was leaving my weapon behind (a feeling I would later come to actualize), but because I was afraid someone would see me. That made me try to be more discreet, which I think probably made me look more obvious. Now, I never take it off unless I'm at home, so it's not a problem.
 
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Totovader said:
Traveling by airline with a firearm got to be so bad that I just bought another firearm and kept a cache at each travel location.

Traveling by car is a completely different experience. Police officers are cordial and friendly (even if they are jerks for writing me a ticket)...
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Thanks. From your experience with the airlines it sounds like not too many airline travelers carry guns. What do you get written up for, for speeding? Why would you think cops are jerks for pulling over a speeder?
 
newyorkguy said:
Thanks. From your experience with the airlines it sounds like not too many airline travelers carry guns. What do you get written up for, for speeding? Why would you think cops are jerks for pulling over a speeder?
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I don't have the statistics on airline travel with guns, but it does happen: the first time I was at security someone was traveling with a long-gun and no hard case. Furthermore, I checked with other gun owners who travel frequently and they had the same complaints. Regardless, my experience does not support the assertion that it doesn't happen.

To be fair, I believe that the problem is more with the TSA and security training. I had quite a few problems with the TSA in general as a frequent flyer. I'm not sure that removing gun restrictions would solve this problem, but it would privatize the issue and therefore there would be an incentive to cater to that portion of the population.

Cops have better things to do. I was being a bit facetious, since I know that I deserved the ticket in some cases. In others, though...
 
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Chaos said:
...Also, an argument is an argument, no matter who said it. Address the argument or admit that you can't.
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You do have a tendency to create strawmen.

Totovader said:
...Regardless, my experience does not support the assertion that it doesn't happen...
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Who asserted airline travelers carrying handguns "doesn't happen?" I wrote:

newyorkguy said:
Thanks. From your experience with the airlines it sounds like not too many airline travelers carry guns...
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That seems to be a pretty innocuous comment which you then misquote or misinterpret in italics. I didn't write nor did I imply that airline travelers never travel with handguns. My observation was that, since your experience is the airlines or TSA do not seem to have a fixed procedure for boarding people traveling with a handgun, that indicates to me it is fairly rare. Which it probably is.
 
newyorkguy said:
My observation was that, since your experience is the airlines or TSA do not seem to have a fixed procedure for boarding people traveling with a handgun, that indicates to me it is fairly rare. Which it probably is.
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And your standards of evidence are different from mine- or at least for you they are different when you want to reach a certain conclusion.

My example is anecdotal at best, and even if it weren't, it certainly wouldn't prove anything but they aren't following specific procedures. The fact that the man at the xray scanner didn't freak out and instead assumed I was traveling knowingly carrying a firearm, would seem to suggest it's not uncommon.

I once sat in a security line for a little over an hour. By my estimation about a quarter of the travelers didn't want to go through the body scanner. As the line whittled down, the woman in front of me didn't want to go through the body scanner- but by this time the agents had gone through a shift change. The agent told her she didn't have a choice. When I pointed out that she did, he didn't seem to understand. I told her directly that she can request a pat down instead.

When I raise similar concerns, sometimes I'm put through the metal detectors instead, and sometimes I'm given a pat down. The pat down procedures are rarely consistent- even among the same TSA agents. To me this is anecdotal. I watch out for it because it's important to me, so I know it creates my own biases. It doesn't prove the commonality of an issue- just like asking a ticketing agent or a TSA agent how common it is wouldn't prove it either. Because I did ask one of the security guards when I first started traveling how often someone travels with a firearm. His response was to shrug his shoulders and tell me "it happens."

Point being, "uncommon" in an event that is already going to be less than the general population is somewhat of a silly comparison. If we assume 35% of Americans own a gun- it would be safe to assume that roughly 35% of travelers are people that own guns. I would see no reason to assume otherwise. That means only roughly one third are potentially needing to travel with a gun, and since the number of carry permits is even less than that, and the states you can travel to is less than that, and the average length of a round trip is... what, maybe a week... These factors speak to what we would expect versus what happens. The implication from your original rhetorical question was to assert that the inconvenience of traveling with a firearm due to the difference in state laws doesn't happen. Since traveling with a firearm is already likely to be a rare event, you're going to assert that any inconvenience is uncommon. Within the subgroup of gun owners I would hazard a guess that it's not.
 
tsig said:
Gun nuts seem to suffer from a continual case of shootus interupptus and the lack of a dramatic climax makes them blue.
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Obviously, you've never been to a gun range. Mops and buckets are always within arms reach.
 
Inconvenience? Just hope you never wind up seated next to this guy:

CFLarsen said:
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? Think "Sky Marshalls"? Think that guns on a plane is a good idea?

Sorry, I don't have time for that. I don't have time to even contemplate the possibility of him being a "good guy"...I'll kill the f***er. On the spot. No questions asked. He's dead.
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;)
 
tsig said:
If you're not going with the rule of law that leaves might makes right that's why you got to carry a 44 magnum.
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.357 mag is fine for most - especially loaded with Black Talons, Golden Sabers or the physical equivalent.:):):)
 
Totovader said:
Legally, as far as you know.

I recently had to travel extensively back and forth between Minneapolis and Missouri, mostly by flying. I carry at all times, so I confirmed with the airline the procedures on how to transport my firearms. I also confirmed with 2 other sources the proper procedures: locked solid case, unloaded, to be accessed by key and the key had to remain on me. The ammunition doesn't have to be locked. Upon arrival to the airport, the case and gun will be inspected prior to boarding.

The first time I traveled, I was terrified because I knew the stigma was going to be a problem. I wasn't surprised when the woman at the airline counter gasped and looked me up and down before running to grab a supervisor. The supervisor gave me a tag to attach to the case and refused to inspect the firearm. Instead, she took me to security, who also refused to inspect the firearm- instead, I was to take the firearm out, put the ammunition in my carry on and then put the tag inside the locked case... then I was to hold onto the key for the locked case (I objected to taking the firearm out, but they insisted I could not travel unless I took it out and showed it to them- they weren't checking to see if it was loaded, they didn't seem to know how). They then ran my case through an xray scanner, which set off an alarm while I was standing there. The attendant for the xray scanner asked me if I had notified my airline I was going to be traveling with a firearm. I explained I was given a tag and put it inside the case. Arriving, at my destination, my firearm was on the luggage carousel with everything else.

Every single time I traveled, the experience, procedures, and treatment was a weird variation of that: don't put the tag inside, do put the tag inside, don't have the ammunition in your carry on, do have the ammunition in your carry on, you can't have a full box of ammo, you can only have a full box of unopened ammo, pick up your firearm at the security office, and pick it up off the carousel (one time I spent an hour trying to track down my firearm), no problem with traveling with a weapon and on one occasion: "you cannot fly this airline with a firearm unless you are a LEO" (she had already assumed I was and when I overheard her talking to another coworker and calling me a LEO I politely corrected her). A manager had to resolve that one as well.

Traveling by airline with a firearm got to be so bad that I just bought another firearm and kept a cache at each travel location.

Traveling by car is a completely different experience. Police officers are cordial and friendly (even if they are jerks for writing me a ticket). When I inform them that I have a permit to carry and have a firearm on my person they thank me and could give a crap. One said "good for you" in a non-sarcastic way. For the purposes of this trip, I was only traveling through states that have reciprocity with the state in which my permit was issued.

I don't travel to states or businesses that don't recognize that right or have told me that they don't want my business. I would assume that I would stop at a rest stop prior to the state line, unholster and lock my weapon in the trunk, and hope that nobody sees me and assumes the worst.

When I first got my carry permit I would always leave my firearm in my car by unholstering and locking it in my trunk (I wore a holster that was outside the waistband and very visible). To me, this was the most dangerous and stressful time- not because I was leaving my weapon behind (a feeling I would later come to actualize), but because I was afraid someone would see me. That made me try to be more discreet, which I think probably made me look more obvious. Now, I never take it off unless I'm at home, so it's not a problem.
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This has been my experience traveling with all sorts of firearms both job related and personal, before and after 9/11.

I have never once encountered a problem with the process more serious than waiting for the weapon examination prior to boarding. I do know of an officer that traveled to AZ right after 9/11 on business that had no trouble at SFO (San Francisco/Oakland) but did have trouble coming back (who would ever imagine SF would ever be more understanding about a firearm than AZ?) and a friend that was traveling on business w/ a suppressed HK M23 pistol had a funny encounter with a security type, but the airlines do have a good handle on accommodating travelers with firearms.

Somebody can run into trouble if they are bringing a given firearm type into a jurisdiction where that firearm type is restricted -ie bringing a named AW into California or a handgun into NYC but ime most airline employees involved treat travelers with firearms as a pretty regular event and the must examination I've ever gone through is somebody admiring the piece in question.

International travel is a completely different issue, and having gone on training exchanges with the Mexican sister city of the municipality that I served, I'll tell you that legally taking guns out of and back into the US is a completely different situation, even with departmental and State Department paper in hand.
 
Chaos said:
This bears repeating. Anyone who thinks that private citizens with firearms protect against tyranny is deluding themselves.
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Some folks in ghettos like Warsaw would imo have disagreed.
 
sunmaster14 said:
Not any more than it is safe to assume that you didn't need the vaccinations you received as a child.
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Sorry for the late reply - weekend intervened.

The vaccinations I received as a child were provided in response to diseases that were known to have existed in the past and currenly existed at the time of my vaccinations. Most, if not all, of these diseases exist today and will continue to exist in the future.

Owning guns to protect against tyranny in the US government is based on a purely hypothetical situation that has never existed in the past, does not currently exist, and shows no real possibilty of existing in the forseen future.
 
NoahFence said:
how'd that work out again?
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The way it would have regardless, but with more dead nazis than there otherwise would have been. The dead nazis part is why. No guns, fewer dead nazis. For other applications feel free to change nazis to criminals, gangs, home invaders, certain so-called militia, terrorists........................
 
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