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[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

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How many German states have to pass anti-circumcision laws–which, due to the customs of the majority religio-ethnic groups, really only effect Jews and Muslims–before all ethnic Germans are labelled anti-Semitic and Islamophobic?

Anti-child-genital-mutilation laws aren't discriminatory. They're intended to stop bad practices.
If adults want to get circumcised, then that's up to them. It shouldn't be imposed on children.
 
Anti-child-genital-mutilation laws aren't discriminatory. They're intended to stop bad practices.
If adults want to get circumcised, then that's up to them. It shouldn't be imposed on children.

:rolleyes:

"Anti-child-genital-mutilation laws"? Really? Seriously?

Thank you for demonsteating that hysteria–not reason–rules your approach to male neonatal circumcision. FGM/C beyond, and possibly including, nicking and/or removal of the clitoral hood would still be FGM/C–at least according to the UN definition of FGM/C–whether the recipient was young girl or an old woman, because it is performed for non-medical purpose; yet we are supposed to believe that somehow male circumcision somehow becomes "not multilation" merely due to the consent of the man involved. That seems to be the rankest sexism.
 
:rolleyes:

"Anti-child-genital-mutilation laws"? Really? Seriously?

Thank you for demonsteating that hysteria–not reason–rules your approach to male neonatal circumcision. FGM/C beyond, and possibly including, nicking and/or removal of the clitoral hood would still be FGM/C–at least according to the UN definition of FGM/C–whether the recipient was young girl or an old woman, because it is performed for non-medical purpose; yet we are supposed to believe that somehow male circumcision somehow becomes "not multilation" merely due to the consent of the man involved. That seems to be the rankest sexism.

I'm sorry that you don't like my entirely accurate description. That doesn't change reality, unfortunately.
Feel free to keep defending such appalling and medically unsound practices, though.
 
Mohammed was given a vision of a specific young girl and told to marry her by God, according to Islam.
He's seen as the paragon of the religion and his behaviour is supposed to be copied, so it's hardly surprising that something that he was ordered to do by God isn't seen as something that's morally wrong, is it?

Failing to accept Aisha's age is simply down to wanting it to be different, in most cases.
There's more to support a young age in the Hadiths than a mistake or an older age.
Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and Sunan Dawud all say they married when she was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine.
Sahih Muslim even says that he died when she was eighteen, so how could they have done anything together when she was nineteen?
Posthumous sex, perhaps? Beats anything Jesus was supposed to have done, I guess.

Yep, usual apologetics being used here, first deny her age, if that doesn't work blame the culture if that fails argue that she was legally married so it was OK, point out that Mohammed killed 300 Jews and we're told it was war and the Jews betrayed him, the fact that Islam was spread by the sword is met by "The Crusades!!" in what I like to call the squid pro quo i. e. claim the other side is just as bad and throw up a cloud of obfuscation.

When all else fails start the drumbeat of Bigot and Islamophobe.
 
Mohammed was given a vision of a specific young girl and told to marry her by God, according to Islam.

He was given a vision of someone with no reference to her age, nor any indication that applied to anyone other than Muhammad ibn Abdullah and 'A'isha bint Abi Bakr, which is why even among those Muslims seeking to justify the practice of child marriage, the visions are rarely mentioned.

He's seen as the paragon of the religion and his behaviour is supposed to be copied, so it's hardly surprising that something that he was ordered to do by God isn't seen as something that's morally wrong, is it?

As I mentioned above, even Muslims don't believe that everything Muhammmad said and did is part of the Sunnah

Failing to accept Aisha's age is simply down to wanting it to be different, in most cases.

There's more to it than that. Kecia Ali has written quite a bit about how the issue of 'A'isha's age has been dealt with among Muslims, but I'm typing on my phone and so can't get to my copy to quote her at the moment.


There's more to support a young age in the Hadiths than a mistake or an older age.
Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and Sunan Dawud all say they married when she was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine.
Sahih Muslim even says that he died when she was eighteen, so how could they have done anything together when she was nineteen?

Yes, I know. And I'm explaining that, even among those Muslims which accept those ahadith as accurate (which isn't all Muslims, by any stretch of the imagination), there are a large number that don't see Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha as any kind of permission, whether express or implied, for the practice of child marriage in Islam.

What are you even trying to argue here? That there are Muslims who do use the example of Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha to justify the practice of child marriage in the modern day? Or that Muslims should (or even have to) believe that the practice of child marriage in the modern day is permissible because of the example of Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha?

Because the latter isn't just untrue, it's ********.
 
:rolleyes:

"Anti-child-genital-mutilation laws"? Really? Seriously?

Thank you for demonsteating that hysteria–not reason–rules your approach to male neonatal circumcision. FGM/C beyond, and possibly including, nicking and/or removal of the clitoral hood would still be FGM/C–at least according to the UN definition of FGM/C–whether the recipient was young girl or an old woman, because it is performed for non-medical purpose; yet we are supposed to believe that somehow male circumcision somehow becomes "not multilation" merely due to the consent of the man involved. That seems to be the rankest sexism.

Why do any of this in the first place?

You may have noticed that countries that have done any form of such practises over many centuries have failed to produce subsequent offsprings that did not need have bits to be cut off, or those countries where people that didn't have bits cut off, become extinct.

It seems that we evolved to have these bits where they are. Religious followers, try as they might, have not put a stop the natural development of us.

Genes keep making boys have foreskins and women clitorises.

Therefore, why even touch them on any religious (or any) ground (no pun intended there for all you catholics reading - and yes that was just a joke...)?


ETA - Sorry I did not see your point about male circumcision - which I too am against. So my response is not to you, but to the 'whole World'
 
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Yep, usual apologetics being used here, first deny her age

I'm sure that if you provide Sisters in Islam with your detailed explanation of why they're wrong and should instead be supporting the practice of child marriage, they'll change their mind and end their opposition to it posthaste, a true win for liberalism and secularism.
 
The implication has been made on this thread that is the only one of the main religions that is more susceptible to extremism when this is clearly not true.
 
Which particular criticisms at that Wiki link do you consider to be valid? Because I sure as hell wouldn't include things like a Catholic cardinal saying Islam is just like Communism because they both appeal to the "alienated and embittered" in any list of "valid criticisms of Islam".

I do not know.

I am waiting for an answer. The link has critics and criticisms, cherry picking one is not going to resolve the issue is it?

Criticism from that page comes from all angles, and since this thread has been merged for a reason, I do not know why all the criticisms should also not be included to this thread.

As I said, please go through them one by one.
 
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I'm sure that if you provide Sisters in Islam with your detailed explanation of why they're wrong and should instead be supporting the practice of child marriage, they'll change their mind and end their opposition to it posthaste, a true win for liberalism and secularism.

Aisha, i'd be interested to know if you have any criticisms of islam yourself and, if so, could you explain a few of them?
 
I'm sure that if you provide Sisters in Islam with your detailed explanation of why they're wrong and should instead be supporting the practice of child marriage, they'll change their mind and end their opposition to it posthaste, a true win for liberalism and secularism.

Implying I support child marriage is an odd distortion of what I have posted.

Are Sisters in Islam registered here at JREF? No, then I'll have a hard time explaining anything to them.
 
Implying I support child marriage is an odd distortion of what I have posted.

I wasn't implying that you support child marriage. I was saying that your labeling of their disputation of 'A'isha's age as part of their strong stance against child marriage as "the usual apologetics" implies you think they ought to support child marriage.

Are Sisters in Islam registered here at JREF? No, then I'll have a hard time explaining anything to them.

They have an email address, you know. Would you like it?
 
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Criticism from that page comes from all angles, and since this thread has been merged for a reason, I do not know why all the criticisms should also not be included to this thread.

As I said, please go through them one by one.

I don't have the time or the inclination to go through a giant everything-and-the-kitchen-sink Wikipedia article and sort it into "good" criticisms and "bad" criticisms.

I'm happy to discuss any specific criticisms of Islam, either yours or someone else's, that you want to discuss, though.
 
He was given a vision of someone with no reference to her age, nor any indication that applied to anyone other than Muhammad ibn Abdullah and 'A'isha bint Abi Bakr, which is why even among those Muslims seeking to justify the practice of child marriage, the visions are rarely mentioned.

Totally irrelevant.
He was told to marry a child via a vision of her. She was a child at the time, so saying that there was no reference to her age is ridiculous.
His behaviour was supposed to be copied and there's nothing suggesting that this marriage is an exception, to my knowledge.

As I mentioned above, even Muslims don't believe that everything Muhammmad said and did is part of the Sunnah

Irrelevant. It was an act committed by Mohammed and ordered by God.

There's more to it than that. Kecia Ali has written quite a bit about how the issue of 'A'isha's age has been dealt with among Muslims, but I'm typing on my phone and so can't get to my copy to quote her at the moment.

Ok. I'd be interested to read it, when you get the chance.

Yes, I know. And I'm explaining that, even among those Muslims which accept those ahadith as accurate (which isn't all Muslims, by any stretch of the imagination), there are a large number that don't see Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha as any kind of permission, whether express or implied, for the practice of child marriage in Islam.

What are you even trying to argue here? That there are Muslims who do use the example of Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha to justify the practice of child marriage in the modern day? Or that Muslims should (or even have to) believe that the practice of child marriage in the modern day is permissible because of the example of Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha?

Because the latter isn't just untrue, it's ********.

All religions have followers that read all manner of things into any part of their canon.
Islam is no exception, in any sense, good or bad.

That some Muslims believe that child marriage is an Islamic practice isn't up for debate, unfortunately.
http://www.ibtimes.com/child-marriage-should-be-legal-pakistani-legal-advisory-body-1560767

It's not up to me to tell any follower of Islam what they should do because of their faith, however.
They're entitled to interpret their religion however they see fit.
 
Totally irrelevant.
He was told to marry a child via a vision of her. She was a child at the time, so saying that there was no reference to her age is ridiculous.

Again, there is no mention of her age in the stories about the visions. Other unrelated sources state she was a child, but not the stories of the vision. The traditions are a jigsaw jumble, not a coherent story.

His behaviour was supposed to be copied and there's nothing suggesting that this marriage is an exception, to my knowledge.

Irrelevant. It was an act committed by Mohammed and ordered by God.

I'm not sure how else I can explain this to you without repeating myself. Not everything that Muhammad did is part of the Sunnah, which is why different groups of Muslims have differing views about 'A'isha's marriage to Muhammad, because those different groups consider different things to be included and/or excluded from the Sunnah. The Salafiyya consider 'A'isha's marriage to Muhammad to be part of it, while al-Azhar al-Sharif does not consider 'A'isha's marriage to Muhammad to be part of it.

All religions have followers that read all manner of things into any part of their canon.
Islam is no exception, in any sense, good or bad.

Yes.

That some Muslims believe that child marriage is an Islamic practice isn't up for debate, unfortunately.

Which is why I'm not debating it, but pointing out that it's not the whole story.


Yes, I posted about that in March (as well as one particular reaction to it).

It's not up to me to tell any follower of Islam what they should do because of their faith, however.
They're entitled to interpret their religion however they see fit.

Which I agree with in principle. However, I'm far more interested in seeing that things like child marriage and FGM/C get ended no matter where they occur or what justification is used for them, which is why I'm all for the one interpretation and wholeheartedly against the other.
 
Aisha, i'd be interested to know if you have any criticisms of islam yourself and, if so, could you explain a few of them?

Dissolution asked me that exact same question a few months ago. This was my response:

I prefer not to generalize about the religion as a whole and instead focus on particular interpretations and actions. But okay, in the interests of having an honest discussion here, I'll give it my best shot.

First of all, as Dr. Ali has noted, Islam arose out of a very patriarchal society, which is reflected in the ahadith and in fiqh (and, albeit to a much lesser degree, the Qur'an itself). It's not locked into any kind of misogynist essentialism, as Muslim feminists like Amina Wadud and Dr. Ali herself have explored, but those aspects and their modern manifestations nevertheless must be strongly confronted.

Second, the history of Islam became inextricably linked with the scriptures of Islam, thanks to the reliance on orally-transmitted traditions as the basis for fiqh, and the aversion to committing to paper of anything beyond the skeleton of the Qur'an until fairly recently. This makes any attempt at extricating the evolution of the religion and the unraveling of juridical interpretation from historical fact difficult, since the kind of academic and textual criticism that's part and parcel of Western scholarship effectively strays into Islamic theology. And, of course, when you start dipping your toes into questions of theology of an active religion, people tend to get antsy. This is a definite impediment to honest inquiry - I disagree with Tom Holland's thesis (which is just Hagarism repackaged), but the MCBs refusal to engage with him and the abuse (and possibly threats) he received on twitter is a real problem.

On a less broad level, I've been highly critical of salafism and put a lot of the blame on the increasing sense of fundamentalism in the Muslim world on the monetary and religious influence of Saudi Arabia. And I particularly hate the Muslim Brotherhood and what they did in Egypt.

I've also been, even more specifically, highly critical of the misogynistic, patriarchal nature and origin of divorce in general under most shari'ah, particularly the entire practice of the "triple talaq".
 
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Which particular criticisms at that Wiki link do you consider to be valid? Because I sure as hell wouldn't include things like a Catholic cardinal saying Islam is just like Communism because they both appeal to the "alienated and embittered" in any list of "valid criticisms of Islam".

Or take these two:

In Dante's Inferno, Muhammad is portrayed as split in half, with his guts hanging out, representing his status as a schismatic (one who broke from the Church).
Some medieval ecclesiastical writers portrayed Muhammad as possessed by Satan, a "precursor of the Antichrist" or the Antichrist himself.[4]

No bias at all.


Look, guys... if you consider crap like THAT valid criticism of Islam, you really ARE islamophobic bigots.

And if you didn´t consider it valid criticism, why post a link to it?
 
That's a surprisingly good story. I mean it leaves open the door of why they should trust what he says about religion too, but it's a good, simple way to communicate that even their holy prophet is merely human and capable of making mistakes.

He says his religious decrees are not up for discussion.No muslim is willing to second guess muhammad in matters of religion.

There is even a quranic verse 33:36 that says so.

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
 
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