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Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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He went to Milan. It could have been to see people and go out dancing but you all keep claiming he was broke and needed money for rent. Recently there was speculation that he went to the lawyers to please his parents presumably to keep them supporting him.
I don't know if Rudy was broke when he went to Milan, but I know he was essentially broke when he was arrested. That all he had on him was change.

There is absolutely no basis to assume he stole money from the nursery. Perhaps had he robbed them before and assumed the locks hadn't been changed he would gone there to see if more money had accumulated but there is no way he would have hung out there. There is as much on him being a hired assassin as that he stole the money from the nursery.
I disagree. There he is in a nursery that was broken into just a few short weeks earlier and had 2000 Euros stolen. And I see no reason that Rudy wouldn't hang out there. If it had money to be stolen, my guess is he wouldn't have hung out there. Since it didn't, it was shelter and there was no reason to believe that anyone would be there the next day as the place was closed.

There is much more information pegging him as a fence.
No in fact there is nothing that points to him as a fence and logic simply doesn't support that theory at all.

First of all, had he done every job you have fantasized that he did, it wouldn't even begin to rise to the level of "crime wave". We don't even know if a Senora Diaz exists, if she exists if she was robbed and if she was robbed that she fingered Rudi and if she fingered him that he did it. I don't see how someone that calls himself at all skeptical could not see the holes in this idea that Rudi stole a watch and caused a fire.

You have never denied that you would not believe CT if it hurt the kids. He just isn't credible, any more than Quintavalle, Nara and Curatolo. Just imagine he had come forward with a story after seeing the kids' pictures that went against them. He didn't bother to call the cops and tell them who had invaded his flat.

You're simply wrong about that. I'm not crazy about the CT story. But I can't ignore it. I also believe the story about his neighbor. The only thing I'm not sure of is if the gold watch was the same gold watch.

You've said that the computers had little value so crooks would have to steal a lot of them so crime must have been rampant.
That's not what I said. I don't see computers as the type of things sold to a fence, That a thief would try and sell them himself as a fence is not likely to offer enough money to the thief to make it worth the thief's time and risk. The problem from what I see is that when you add a fence into the scenario, you are are adding too much costs into the product as the fence has to make his margin.
 
There were what, some 13 or 17 unidentified fingerprints found in Meredith's flat.

<snip>
2. Had plenty of guests plenty of times. They are not from her room as far as I understand<snip>
The problem is that there will always be things that seem strange. I specifically do not see multiple people engaging Meredeth in a fight without leaving bloody fingerprints and foot prints in the room.


Hi Desert Fox and others.
Giacomo's fingerprints were found inside her flat.,
He is the guy from downstairs who had started datin' Meredith a few days before Raff and Amanda met at a classical music concert of all places and hooked up.


There are un-identified fingerprints found in Meredith's bedroom.

As I did not attend court that day when the fingerprint issue was brought up,
I'll refer to someone else who did, Mr. Frank Sfarzo.

Here are a couple of interesting bits from postings by him:
From April of 2009:
There are two ways to detect latent fingerprints. Warming super glue (cyanoacrylate) until a closed room is fulfilled with its fumes, or proceeding locally with magnetic powder.

The cyanoacrylate was used in Meredith's room and in the little toilet. In the rest of the house they applied the powder where they thought there should be fingerprints. (*)

Scientific police have the technician who makes the prints visible, the one who takes pictures of them, the one who chooses the readable ones (those that have at least 16 points at a fair distance) and the one who looks for matches comparing them with the suspects fingerprints or with the database.
At the end 108 pictures were taken, each one containing one to three signs. It would be too long to say what was found where. Also there's a bit of confusion with full or partial fingerprints or stains but at the end we may say that of these signs 97 could be said to be fingerprints. 47 belonged to Meredith Kercher, 17 to Rudy Guede, 5 to Raffaele Sollecito, 5 to Filomena Romanelli, 5 to Laura Mezzetti, 4 to Giacomo Silenzi, 1 to Amanda Knox, 13 were not attributed to anyone.

The experts were not surprised at all that there weren't fingerprints, for instance, on Amanda's guitar or on the knives lying on the kitchen sink. They explained that if you wash the cutlery and then you dry it with a dish cloth you don't leave any fingerprint (for not to speak if you use washing gloves).
Scientific police were not surprised at all that there was only one Amanda's fingerprint in the whole house. On a glass there were 3 signs, one of them was recognized as Amanda's fingerprint. The other 2 signs, unreadable, must be the other fingers she used to grab the glass.
We thought, for instance, that Meredith's cellphones were submerged with fingerprints since the many people who touched them before knowing they were so important. And instead only two prints were found on them and one inside one of them.

Now that we know that is so difficult to leave fingerprints, that it's so easy to cancel them, and that there were so many of them we can hardly maintain that a clean-up was performed, even just in the kitchen. The lack of Amanda's fingerprints can be more likely explained with the fact that she wasn't there the night of the crime and that when she came back she didn't have occasion to leave fingerprints having taken a shower and having not touched the right surfaces in the right way.
If we then start to finally consider those 13 unattributed fingerprints, together with the unknown DNA detected, and the other clues that we have seen (two male people running) we understand again that the scenario could be really different from the depicted one and insisting on Amanda and Raffaele maybe had the effect of misleading the investigation from the right direction.


From May 2009:
Knox and Sollecito
Raffaele's fingerprints were found on Laura's door, and nothing of him and Amanda was in Meredith's room. Amanda had only one, on a glass.
As we can see their fingerprints locations are perfectly compatible with the check of the apartment Amanda and Raffaele did when, in the morning after the crime, they found out there was something strange in the house.

Anyone else? Among the 13 unattributed fingerprints only 4 were found in Meredith's room. 2 on a little calendar and 2 on the door. So not really central locations. But 4 is still an important number if we consider that the main actor left only one. Will they ever find an owner?

Just for your info, JREF-ers!
Please keep an open mind!

There were unattributed fingerprints, and unidentifiable DNA found in Meredith's bedroom, along with 2 probable blonde hair strands, which were obviously seen before being photographed with flash, that caught Stefanoni and her assistants attention before she bagged and tagged the samples. At least 1, seen in Meredith's dying hand, is wavy and blonde.

Too bad Dr. Patricia Stefanoni,
1 of the Big Guns, ya might say,
who had to get special permission to travel all the way from Rome to collect and then work on her samples that she collected herself in this brutal murder in Perugia, apparently lost them...
RW


PS - (*) Hi Grinder!
It's details like this, hilted above,
that help me to believe that FS did cover the scene very well and knows much more about this horrible murder case we discuss than you or I will ever know. Though I'm sure he got a few things wrong over the years, heck I believe most of his reporting, (especially as he is a native Italian speaker), than I do with most others reporting. And he too 1st thought The Kids guilty. Please correct any info that I find and post from FS if wrong, ok?

Anyways, carry on and have a good one everyone! :)
 
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I don't know if Rudy was broke when he went to Milan, but I know he was essentially broke when he was arrested. That all he had on him was change.

I disagree. There he is in a nursery that was broken into just a few short weeks earlier and had 2000 Euros stolen. And I see no reason that Rudy wouldn't hang out there. If it had money to be stolen, my guess is he wouldn't have hung out there. Since it didn't, it was shelter and there was no reason to believe that anyone would be there the next day as the place was closed.
<snip>


Hi ACbyTesla,
I still chuckle abit when I recall that apparently Rudy made pasta dinner on Friday evening for the lil' kids, who were not even there at the Nursery School that night!

Kinda reminds me of this photo:



Rudy apparently placed pasta in little bowls around the room
and then slept on the childrens cots?
For $20 Euro?
Freak!

Why not just stay overnight at his Aunt's pad?
Wouldn't you visit ol' Auntie if you had only $20 Euro left to your name, a stolen laptop and a hot cellphone on ya?
 
Hi ACbyTesla,
I still chuckle abit when I recall that apparently Rudy made pasta dinner on Friday evening for the lil' kids, who were not even there at the Nursery School that night!

Kinda reminds me of this photo:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/nhhc.jpg[/qimg]


Rudy apparently placed pasta in little bowls around the room
and then slept on the childrens cots?
For $20 Euro?
Freak!

Why not just stay overnight at his Aunt's pad?
Wouldn't you visit ol' Auntie if you had only $20 Euro left to your name, a stolen laptop and a hot cellphone on ya?

Everything Rudy did was strange. Who places pasta in lots of little bowls when he is in the only person there? He is showing that he is unstable. Grinder's argument is that since we can't prove in a court of law that Rudy ACTUALLY broke into the nursery then Rudy never broke in but was let in as Rudy said. That because Rudy wasn't convicted of the Diaz burglary, then we should ignore that as a possibility. That since CT didn't actually file a police report then that didn't happen. That just because Rudy happen to be holding the laptop and the cellphone, than he must have bought them from a thief but he didn't actually break into the law office.

But these incidents aren't really necessary to convict Rudy of killing Meredith. Rudy left plenty of evidence to convict himself of that. The only real question is how did Rudy get into the cottage? Did Amanda let him in as the courts that convicted Amanda and Raffaele suggested? Did Meredith let him in as Rudy has said or did he break in?

I think it is more than obvious that Rudy broke in. Even if you discount all these burglaries that Rudy is connected to as hogwash as Grinder has suggested, how can you actually believe that Rudy was let in by Amanda or Meredith? There really is nothing to connect Rudy to Amanda. Or proof that Amanda even left Raffaele's apartment. And we know for certain that Amanda was there until at least 8:40 and one or both of them were there at 9:26, the time that Rudy said Meredith was killed. This was when the file Naruto was opened or begun. The playing of the file would last 23 minute or until 9:49.

To me the key to dismissing that either Amanda or Meredith let him in is the time that Rudy arrived at the cottage. He is there 40 minutes before Ms. Popovich speaks to Amanda at Raffaele's front door and an hour before Meredith arrives home.
Now Rudy says he had a date with Meredith. Which Grinder has basically said is possible and that Rudy staged a burglary to deflect away from him. But if Rudy had actually had a date with Meredith made the day before, would he have arrived at the cottage an hour before Meredith? Not very likely. Who shows up for their first date with a woman an hour early? Also, not a single other person even saw them the night before and Meredith didn't tell a soul that she had a date with anyone that night.


And the burglary wasn't staged. The physical evidence by both the Channel 5 documentary has shown that the wall was an easy climb and the window was broken from the outside. I would not convict Rudy of the murder based on the anecdotal evidence of the burglaries. That would be wrong. But when presented with the multiple theories of what happened that night, the burglary gone wrong possibility has far more going for it than any of the competing theories. That the evidence points strongly to the probability that Rudy was a burglar that broke in that evening, just as he likely broke into the nursery as well as the law office and although the probability is less that Rudy broke into Ms. Diaz and CT's place, they still remain a strong possibility.
 
Everything Rudy did was strange. Who places pasta in lots of little bowls when he is in the only person there? He is showing that he is unstable. Grinder's argument is that since we can't prove in a court of law that Rudy ACTUALLY broke into the nursery then Rudy never broke in but was let in as Rudy said. That because Rudy wasn't convicted of the Diaz burglary, then we should ignore that as a possibility. That since CT didn't actually file a police report then that didn't happen. That just because Rudy happen to be holding the laptop and the cellphone, than he must have bought them from a thief but he didn't actually break into the law office.

If I may do some speculating. . . I wonder if the pasta bowl thing was some kind of thrill action?
He planned to be gone before anybody got there but everybody would see that somebody broke in there and left the bowls? Maybe trying to scare them?
 
I've wondered if perhaps it was a cat fight the people were hearing. Didn't Meredith's boyfriend leave a window open for his cat? Perhaps another cat got in through the window and the 2 cats fought. Cat fights can be prolonged as 2 cats face off and stare at each other, the growling and snarling sometimes low key and at other times really loud as they attack. An inside cat fight might account for the blood downstairs. IIRC rudy wrote that he heard an unusual sound downstairs, also.
Nice idea.

It'd be interesting if the dude bloodied at 7:00am was Hekuran Kokomani.

And the dude who testified in court dressed in his finest
wearin' a hoodie, baseball cap and dark sunglasses in court was someone else...

Who wears a hoodie, a cap, and sunglasses to testify?
Weird stuff...
Do they have blonds in Albania?

Many people turned their heads to glance sideways and a few stopped and turned to look at something. The murder at the cottage was all over the news in the next few days. Whatever the many people in the garage saw or heard must have been unrelated and understood by them to be unrelated to the murder. Had there been witnesses who told the police they saw or heard a crime-related fact, the police would have leaked it to make it look like they were on top of things.
Not so sure about this. Nara heard a blood-curdling scream that echoed around the valley (Briars) but went back to bed and didn't give it a second thought. Quite often, people don't realise what they saw or heard might be relevant or important. Randy told us that if he hears a gun shot at night he makes a note of the time. That makes him unusual. Most people probably figure the cops will figure it out, no need to waste their time or get involved.

Why? Because Rudy knew the Milan police told the Perugia police that the laptop came from the Perugia lawyer, and he thought the Perugia police were attentive and would make the connection with his recent burglary. So he went to the lawyers' office to protest his innocence, so as to mitigate any police problems for himself.

Why would he expect to be believed? It might be how he reasoned because there has to be a reason why he did it but it doesn't make much sense. He was still going down for receiving stolen goods (as we only recently discovered, which is very weird) anyway.
 
Not so sure about this. Nara heard a blood-curdling scream that echoed around the valley (Briars) but went back to bed and didn't give it a second thought. Quite often, people don't realise what they saw or heard might be relevant or important. Randy told us that if he hears a gun shot at night he makes a note of the time. That makes him unusual. Most people probably figure the cops will figure it out, no need to waste their time or get involved.

Shades of this happened to me maybe about a year ago. . . Maybe a bit more because I think I was in my old car.

Driving out of a shopping center and laying in the grass out of the entrance was a man. Everybody was just driving by.
Maybe he was just a drunk and passed out but how do you know? Maybe he had collapsed?
I ended up pulling off to the side and tried to speak to him and got no answer.
Called police / fire non emergency and they sent somebody out.
Turned out he was just a drunk passed out but still nobody even checked on him.
 
I don't. I read an article about how phones being stolen in Europe were down considerably and how there was a movement in the US to use a similar approach. But I'm still pretty sure that the phone system over there only used to record the SIM number. I'd actually recheck this but my internet connection is not working very well right now. I keep getting a lot of errors.


If you had been following the eariy developments of the case, one of the controversies that came up was the fact that Patrick swapped phones after the murder. This was presented in Matteini complete with the IMEI numbers. Thus the documented fact that the europian phone systems were recording the IMEI number as part of the call detail records back in 2007.


But thanks to your post revisiting this issue I have discovered something new.

Patrick phone had been using the number 354548014227987 but after the murder they found he was using the number 354548014227980. What I hadn't known until just now when I read about it on Wikipedia is that the last digit in this number is a Luhn checksum. It means that there was always only one phone, there was no phone swap, there was no sim swap, there was only an incompetent postal police that didn't recognize that their own equipment was dropping the check digit. Ah, that's Italian!
 
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Shades of this happened to me maybe about a year ago. . . Maybe a bit more because I think I was in my old car.

Driving out of a shopping center and laying in the grass out of the entrance was a man. Everybody was just driving by.
Maybe he was just a drunk and passed out but how do you know? Maybe he had collapsed?
I ended up pulling off to the side and tried to speak to him and got no answer.
Called police / fire non emergency and they sent somebody out.
Turned out he was just a drunk passed out but still nobody even checked on him.
I think that is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. You changed the nature of the experiment by stopping and checking.
 
I think that is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. You changed the nature of the experiment by stopping and checking.

I did not do it out of altruism. . . .I would have had a guilty conscious if I had not. Ain't evolution grand.
 
If you had been following the eariy developments of the case, one of the controversies that came up was the fact that Patrick swapped phones after the murder. This was presented in Matteini complete with the IMEI numbers. Thus the documented fact that the europian phone systems were recording the IMEI number as part of the call detail records back in 2007.


But thanks to your post revisiting this issue I have discovered something new.

Patrick phone had been using the number 354548014227987 but after the murder they found he was using the number 354548014227980. What I hadn't known until just now when I read about it on Wikipedia is that the last digit in this number is a Luhn checksum. It means that there was always only one phone, there was no phone swap, there was no sim swap, there was only an incompetent postal police that didn't recognize that their own equipment was dropping the check digit. Ah, that's Italian!

So are you trying to say that you've just debunked one of the longest-standing myths of the case? But I thought that Patrick himself had given testimony to the effect of having 2 phones or sims or whatever?

Yet another myth ascribed to perugian police incompetence? Is there anything they touched that the didn't screw up?
 
So are you trying to say that you've just debunked one of the longest-standing myths of the case? But I thought that Patrick himself had given testimony to the effect of having 2 phones or sims or whatever?

Yet another myth ascribed to perugian police incompetence? Is there anything they touched that the didn't screw up?

I have been watching a show called "Cold Justice"
They often get cases where they say that they have DNA but it is below the threshold. If it was Italy, they would run the sample until they get something.
 
Speculation versus observed facts

Why? Why would the police want to "assassinate Meredith Kercher? Why would they want to kill a twenty year old college student who had been in the country for about 60 days. For the life of me I can't imagine why.

I also don't believe that Rudy was a police informer. I do believe the Perugian police on the behest of Rudy's wealthy adoptive parents helped Rudy get released in Milan. Grinder for example has always asked me why Rudy went to the law office and apologized. I believe his adoptive parents told him to, that's why. Or that he wanted to look good to his adoptive parents. It would be part of the story he wanted to tell them.

What reason is there to believe that the issue of his adoptive parents was raised with the Milan police by anyone?

But there was a reported phone call with the Perugian police, and Guede was released after that call. (Pretty sure I saw a comment from the milan police officer saying something to the effect, 'these requests among police departments happen all the time'. (I know, sources).

But pressure from the adopted parents would be a reason for Guede to go to the law office to try to talk his way out of having their stolen property. But that doesn't mean the adoptive parents told him to do it, or were even aware of his doing it. Just saying it could fit, not saying I buy it. I can't figure out what Rudy was doing going to the law office, unless its an indication of how out of touch with reality he really is, thinking he could talk his way out of being caught with their property.

Graham reported Rudy was linked to six burglaries before the Kercher murder, so yes, kind of a spree. (Unless you doubt the report, but then you can just keep shaving away any reported facts until what's left fits any theory you like).

Rudy not a fence. Burglar yes, fence no. Couldn't hold a job as a gardener, not a fence, not secret agent material. Low level informant yes, secret agent/assassin/fence no.
 
SIMulated truths

So are you trying to say that you've just debunked one of the longest-standing myths of the case? But I thought that Patrick himself had given testimony to the effect of having 2 phones or sims or whatever?
Maybe Patrick's lawyer advised him that it was a judicial truth that he changed SIM cards.
 
Cukoo for Koko

It'd be interesting if the dude bloodied at 7:00am was Hekuran Kokomani.

And the dude who testified in court dressed in his finest
wearin' a hoodie, baseball cap and dark sunglasses in court was someone else...

Who wears a hoodie, a cap, and sunglasses to testify?
Weird stuff...

Maybe he's trying to avoid having his image captured by the press and media. Not exactly an upstanding member of the community. As a low level criminal, his anonymity has value to him, being a celebrity of sorts could render him without any means of support.
 
A fence buys stolen or suspiciously priced goods and resells them at a profit. They need ready cash and a regular distribution network or there's little money in it, that's why many police departments have historically paid close attention to pawn shops and the like.

A thief may try to sell what they stole independently, but that doesn't make them a fence.

Anyone that sells hot goods that he didn't steal himself is a fence. Not all fences pay up front. We know he had stolen goods in Milan when caught in the nursery that had no signs of break in. There is absolutely nothing pointing to him having stolen the 2000 Euros.

Because he chose to sleep in the nursery and had no money on him when caught outside what he scooped from their change drawer. I highly doubt he spent the last of his cash on those items which required him to risk sneaking into the nursery school to sleep because he couldn't afford a hostel or something similar.

I don't think anyone believes that he "bought" the loot in Milan. We don't know if he had other funds besides the petty cash.

Lest it was misunderstood, I was just nitpicking a nitpicker, not subscribing to any theories regarding him being protected by PLE. Kevin_Lowe pretty much summed up what I think of the likelihood of those theories. That Rudy was fostered by the richest man in town is enough reason for police to be magnanimous with him, knowing of course that if they arrest him there's a possibility he'll be well represented by lawyers and could bring them into conflict with a wealthy and powerful person which could annoy their superiors, thus it may have seemed better to believe the nonsense he was spewing. I'm guessing that when detained Rudy Guede doesn't tell police he was thrown out and his former patron thought of him as an 'inveterate liar' when he drops that particular name... ;)

To nitpick a nitpicker you just make stuff up, brilliant. Do you have any source for his foster dad being the "richest man in town"? I have no doubt that he is very well off but the only source for the "wealthiest man" is the renown Patrick King.

Here is bit from Nina - note the quotes from

Caporali affectively adopted Rudy and gave him work at a farmhouse bed and breakfast the family owned.
"We gave him an opportunity, even though we knew he was a liar and had been in trouble, but we wanted to give him a chance," said Caporali.
"We took him in as a son, but he was more interested in other things than studying and work. We gave him a job but we had to sack him because he was never there.
"In the end we asked him to leave our home because we just couldn't cope any longer and we have had no contact with him for more than a year.

Quotes add credibility for me when the man quoted has the means and connections to have them corrected and this would undo the recent theory that Rudi was ordered by his foster to go visit the lawyers. For me it also reduces the chance that the police would give him special treatment.

When convenient his fosters had disowned him and thrown him out on his ear. When convenient his fosters protected the liar from the police. If he needs to be broke and in need of rent money so be it. One account has his mother taking care of him and the next has the family disowning him.

As the son of one of the richest men in town was Raf given cover? Did he do more than we know about, as the PGP contend?
 
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Grinder. European phones vs US. In Europe pretty much all pones are GSM phones. In the US they are mixture of multiple technologies including CDMA and GSM. There is a serial number associated with each phone. CDMA phones the serial number is called the ESN number and with GSM it is referred to as the IMEI number. Essentially it is the same thing. But calls are billed to the SIM number not the IMEI or ESN number. The reality is that the service and how this information is handled varies from carrier to carrier and nation to nation. Some countries have implemented a blacklist for stolen phones which covers all carriers. (Australia and the UK for example)

Here is an article that discusses this issue in detail.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/combatting-theft-with-stolen-phone-blacklists/

Thanks I'll read it later - maybe :p

Is there a difference with prepaid? T-Mobile knows which phone I'm using when I switch the SIM. I wonder if Rudi knew one way or the other.
 
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