Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Not really Grinder, or at least not in November of 2007 The cell phone companies have always had the ability to track the serial number of the phone, but they didn't. They only record the SIM number in their database on the calls. I'm pretty sure that has changed in most of Europe now. There is a stolen cell phone database in Europe which allows them to make stolen cell phones useless making the incentive to steal them significantly less.

But this is not true in the US. In fact the cell phone companies have actually fought this implementation in the US because they think they will sell fewer phones.

I don't believe you know the European systems.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't believe you know the European systems.

Delete

 

[acbytesla]

I don't believe you know the European systems.

I don't. I read an article about how phones being stolen in Europe were down considerably and how there was a movement in the US to use a similar approach. But I'm still pretty sure that the phone system over there only used to record the SIM number. I'd actually recheck this but my internet connection is not working very well right now. I keep getting a lot of errors.

 

[acbytesla]

He didn't buy the computer or cell in Milan. He either stole it himself or was acting as a fence. He had his ways of getting to Milan economy style. Who goes "dancing" dead broke? At least the fencing angle makes sense to go to Milan since the loot was from Perugia.

Does it really make more sense for him to have gone there with no prospects of making some sales? How do we know he was broke?



Have a police report on this "robbery"? Or maybe he went out of town to unload some stolen merchandise.

Was he in fact questioned about the great crime wave sweeping Perugia?

Now under your theories was he protected by the PLE and therefore had no need to run to Milan or not?

You're assuming that Rudy went to Milan to sell these stolen items. Maybe he went to have a good time, see people and maybe rob the nursery again. I mean as long as we're speculating.

I don't believe Rudy was ever questioned about the burglaries in Perugia nor do I actually think the police in Perugia ever connected him to these burglaries. In fact, other than Ms. Diaz, did they really have anything to connect Rudy to any of them? Not really and the truth is no community that size would see two burglaries...(Ms. Diaz and the law firm) as a wave of crimes. It only really looks like a wave of crimes when you ad the Nursery in Milan, CT and the cottage into the equation.

 

[Strozzi]

"It shows the corruption is deeply rooted and truth is a negotiable commodity. "

I am working on the theory that Rudy worked with the police as an informer, and did some other jobs for them. I would think that if the assassination of Meridith were a project that both the police and Rudy took part, they would do things in a way that fake samples of DNA and fake fingerprints would cause the mystery to go unsolved.
It appears that something went wrong with this plan.
There are 2 types of police that were not expected to work on this crime, the postal police, and the German police (they caught Rudy on the train).
Because of this Rudy's friends lost control of things.

I don't think it means much or takes much to be a police informer. If a police officer catches someone in a low-level crime and doesn't "book 'em", the cop can tell the offender "I could book you for that" and "you owe me". Being a police informer can mean that the cop can come around and ask the person for info, and he better cooperate and tell the cop something helpful, or the next time the cop has something on him he WILL book 'em. If Rudy is involved in low-level drug dealing or if he receives stolen property, it means his suppliers are a bit higher up the loose crime structure than he is. Rudy, a racial minority, and young, is hardly going to be the Perugia police's penetration of the Albanian crime gangs in Perugia. For that, the police can turn one of the Albanians they catch.

I would think that if Rudy was in trouble with the police in Perugia or Rome, he would identify himself by explaining that he is the semi-adopted son of the wealthy family that took him in and raised him. That would get him some consideration, especially as Madam Caporali was still helping him. She just a few months earlier had apparently helped him secure his room. He might also identify himself to police as a player on the Perugia semi-pro team, which might mean to the police that he was in an organized structure with a coach over him. Not just a drifter, as some call him.

Identifying his wealthy family sponsorship to the Milan police, and having it verified in a Milan police to Perugia police phone call, may have been sufficient for this trespasser possessing a stolen Perugia laptop to be told by the Milan police "Get out of here and don't come back" and "If we catch you here again, you'll be sorry".

He may even have been told by the Perugia police to come to the police station when he got back to Perugia. Check-in with us. Which could explain why Rudy on his own initiative or at police instruction went to the lawyers' office to protest his innocence. He was trying to mitigate his theft.

20 year old Rudy, an African in Perugia, was not "the Jackel". Thoughts that Rudy was working for the police to assassinate a British student are nonsense, worthy of discussion on a different board.

 

[Strozzi]

Delete

 

[Strozzi]

It must mean something, I agree. Let's put that one with the 'what attracted their attention?' question re: the recent car park CCTV pics. In fact, there is quite a collection of these mysteries. Btw. on the car park thing I believe it must have been something they heard. It was dark and there was nothing to see in the direction of the house. It must have been a sound. Was Guede howling at the moon in some freaked out state?

Many people turned their heads to glance sideways and a few stopped and turned to look at something. The murder at the cottage was all over the news in the next few days. Whatever the many people in the garage saw or heard must have been unrelated and understood by them to be unrelated to the murder. Had there been witnesses who told the police they saw or heard a crime-related fact, the police would have leaked it to make it look like they were on top of things.

 

[Strozzi]

You know how we've seen the "Disturbing the Peace" ticket that Amanda Knox got
when some boyz were too loud and bein' goofballs while partying 1 night + throwin' rocks?
Heck, Mignini even brought this up in court.

I'd really like to see the police report from when Rudy Guede was busted inside that Nursery School.

Officer Napoleoni sure doesn't seem to ask too many questions about that stolen latop
when she has Rudy Guede, with lawyer present, sittin' right in front of her...


Another question for ya: Why would Rudy Guede travel 300 miles or so back to Perugia and then head to the Lawyers Office to say that it wasn't me that stole your stuff?Weird...
RW

Why? Because Rudy knew the Milan police told the Perugia police that the laptop came from the Perugia lawyer, and he thought the Perugia police were attentive and would make the connection with his recent burglary. So he went to the lawyers' office to protest his innocence, so as to mitigate any police problems for himself.

 

[JREF2010]

Quote:
it appears that Gill agrees that Sollecito is on the clasp (though the concession seems deliberately muted). But he also accepts the C-V argument that the profiles on the clasp probably got there through contamination, one example being an investigator touching the outer door handle and then the clasp. SERIOUSLY? ONE OF THE WORLD'S LEADING FORENSIC DNA EXPERTS THINKS TOUCH DNA COULD HAVE WAS TRANSFERRED FROM SOLLECITO'S HAND, TO THE DOOR HANDLE, TO AN INVESTIGATOR'S GLOVE, TO THE BRA CLASP - ALTHOUGH IT IS PRESENT ON THE CLASP IN QUANTITY GREATER THAN WHAT IS USUALLY FOUND FROM DIRECT TRANSFER??? I'm shocked.
Endquote

One, every expert whose opinion I have been able to find says to change gloves. Two, DNA has been found on examination gloves (IIRC it is in a paper by Van Oorshot and collaborators). Three, tertiary transfer is in the peer-reviewed literature. Four, I agree with the general principle that studies which are peer-reviewed carry more weight than studies which are not. However, two unpublished studies have also shown tertiary transfer, and one of them involved gloves. Five, the amount of DNA should not be used to discern the mode of its deposition, but if the PG-commenters chose to ignore that, then the should acknowledge that Raffaele's profile is present in about 1/8 the quantity of Meredith's, and it is on the borderline of being low-template. How one should interpret the fact that Meredith's profile is in such greater quantity is something that should be addressed in any intellectually honest argument.

Chris does anyone ever bag/log the gloves?
I wouldnt think there would be too many, at least in the murder scene, like the bedroom.

At a minimum you think Stefony would have had everyone change the gloves before working in the bedroom...

I fear this case will turn into a goal of protecting the Rome Lab, and leave the Kerchers denied the truth.

 

[Strozzi]

Chris does anyone ever bag/log the gloves?

I don't know if Stefanoni would bag them, but she probably reused them investigating the next crime scene.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

If the glove is filthy, you must find them not guilty

Chris does anyone ever bag/log the gloves?
I wouldnt think there would be too many, at least in the murder scene, like the bedroom.

At a minimum you think Stefony would have had everyone change the gloves before working in the bedroom...

I fear this case will turn into a goal of protecting the Rome Lab, and leave the Kerchers denied the truth.

I have never heard of anyone logging this procedure. But if you don't change gloves, for each new piece of evidence, you must use disposable tweezers to handle it. I realize that one would go through many pairs of gloves (but that is why we pay taxes). Of course, if they had no money to record the interviews of 5-6 November, perhaps they also had no money for gloves (which are less than $10 per box).

On page 38 of John Butler's 2005 textbook Forensic DNA Typing, he wrote, "Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. Gloves should be changed between handling of different items of evidence." Dick Warrington is the author of some articles in Forensic Magazine and is employed by a company which makes equipment for crime scene investigations. He wrote, “If you pick up one piece of evidence and then pick up another piece of evidence you can transfer evidence from the first item to the second item. You can avoid this kind of cross-contamination if you remember to change your gloves before handling each piece of evidence.” He also advised, “Put on gloves, use gloves, change gloves. Do that every time you touch a piece of evidence. Likewise, use disposable tweezers, scalpels, etc. Change these each time they are used, as well.” Orchid Cellmark’s guidelines for collecting DNA evidence read in part, “Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. It is recommended the gloves be changed between the collection of each item of evidence.”

 

[acbytesla]

OK Mr. Cochran

I have never heard of anyone logging this procedure. But if you don't change gloves, for each new piece of evidence, you must use disposable tweezers to handle it. I realize that one would go through many pairs of gloves (but that is why we pay taxes). Of course, if they had no money to record the interviews of 5-6 November, perhaps they also had no money for gloves (which are less than $10 per box).

On page 38 of John Butler's 2005 textbook Forensic DNA Typing, he wrote, "Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. Gloves should be changed between handling of different items of evidence." Dick Warrington is the author of some articles in Forensic Magazine and is employed by a company which makes equipment for crime scene investigations. He wrote, “If you pick up one piece of evidence and then pick up another piece of evidence you can transfer evidence from the first item to the second item. You can avoid this kind of cross-contamination if you remember to change your gloves before handling each piece of evidence.” He also advised, “Put on gloves, use gloves, change gloves. Do that every time you touch a piece of evidence. Likewise, use disposable tweezers, scalpels, etc. Change these each time they are used, as well.” Orchid Cellmark’s guidelines for collecting DNA evidence read in part, “Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. It is recommended the gloves be changed between the collection of each item of evidence.”

I like the sentiment and the instructions, but they only care about that in jurisdictions that care about an honest process.

 

[Kaosium]

He didn't buy the computer or cell in Milan. He either stole it himself or was acting as a fence. He had his ways of getting to Milan economy style. Who goes "dancing" dead broke? At least the fencing angle makes sense to go to Milan since the loot was from Perugia.

A fence buys stolen or suspiciously priced goods and resells them at a profit. They need ready cash and a regular distribution network or there's little money in it, that's why many police departments have historically paid close attention to pawn shops and the like.

A thief may try to sell what they stole independently, but that doesn't make them a fence.

Does it really make more sense for him to have gone there with no prospects of making some sales? How do we know he was broke?

Because he chose to sleep in the nursery and had no money on him when caught outside what he scooped from their change drawer. I highly doubt he spent the last of his cash on those items which required him to risk sneaking into the nursery school to sleep because he couldn't afford a hostel or something similar.

Have a police report on this "robbery"? Or maybe he went out of town to unload some stolen merchandise.

Was he in fact questioned about the great crime wave sweeping Perugia?

Now under your theories was he protected by the PLE and therefore had no need to run to Milan or not?

Lest it was misunderstood, I was just nitpicking a nitpicker, not subscribing to any theories regarding him being protected by PLE. Kevin_Lowe pretty much summed up what I think of the likelihood of those theories. That Rudy was fostered by the richest man in town is enough reason for police to be magnanimous with him, knowing of course that if they arrest him there's a possibility he'll be well represented by lawyers and could bring them into conflict with a wealthy and powerful person which could annoy their superiors, thus it may have seemed better to believe the nonsense he was spewing. I'm guessing that when detained Rudy Guede doesn't tell police he was thrown out and his former patron thought of him as an 'inveterate liar' when he drops that particular name...

 

[acbytesla]

Grinder. European phones vs US. In Europe pretty much all pones are GSM phones. In the US they are mixture of multiple technologies including CDMA and GSM. There is a serial number associated with each phone. CDMA phones the serial number is called the ESN number and with GSM it is referred to as the IMEI number. Essentially it is the same thing. But calls are billed to the SIM number not the IMEI or ESN number. The reality is that the service and how this information is handled varies from carrier to carrier and nation to nation. Some countries have implemented a blacklist for stolen phones which covers all carriers. (Australia and the UK for example)

Here is an article that discusses this issue in detail.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/combatting-theft-with-stolen-phone-blacklists/

 

[Kaosium]

I have never heard of anyone logging this procedure. But if you don't change gloves, for each new piece of evidence, you must use disposable tweezers to handle it. I realize that one would go through many pairs of gloves (but that is why we pay taxes). Of course, if they had no money to record the interviews of 5-6 November, perhaps they also had no money for gloves (which are less than $10 per box).

The food service workers at my local Subway change their gloves more often than the forensic technicians of the Polizia Scientifica.

On page 38 of John Butler's 2005 textbook Forensic DNA Typing, he wrote, "Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. Gloves should be changed between handling of different items of evidence." Dick Warrington is the author of some articles in Forensic Magazine and is employed by a company which makes equipment for crime scene investigations. He wrote, “If you pick up one piece of evidence and then pick up another piece of evidence you can transfer evidence from the first item to the second item. You can avoid this kind of cross-contamination if you remember to change your gloves before handling each piece of evidence.” He also advised, “Put on gloves, use gloves, change gloves. Do that every time you touch a piece of evidence. Likewise, use disposable tweezers, scalpels, etc. Change these each time they are used, as well.” Orchid Cellmark’s guidelines for collecting DNA evidence read in part, “Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. It is recommended the gloves be changed between the collection of each item of evidence.”

Why is it that many restaurants now require gloves to be worn? What might happen if they aren't?

 

[Desert Fox]

A fence buys stolen or suspiciously priced goods and resells them at a profit. They need ready cash and a regular distribution network or there's little money in it, that's why many police departments have historically paid close attention to pawn shops and the like.

A thief may try to sell what they stole independently, but that doesn't make them a fence.

I think this argument put to bed the argument that Rudy was a fence.
He simply did not have the ready cash indicating he was a fence.

 

[Grinder]

You're assuming that Rudy went to Milan to sell these stolen items. Maybe he went to have a good time, see people and maybe rob the nursery again. I mean as long as we're speculating.

He went to Milan. It could have been to see people and go out dancing but you all keep claiming he was broke and needed money for rent. Recently there was speculation that he went to the lawyers to please his parents presumably to keep them supporting him.

There is absolutely no basis to assume he stole money from the nursery. Perhaps had he robbed them before and assumed the locks hadn't been changed he would gone there to see if more money had accumulated but there is no way he would have hung out there. There is as much on him being a hired assassin as that he stole the money from the nursery.

There is much more information pegging him as a fence.

I don't believe Rudy was ever questioned about the burglaries in Perugia nor do I actually think the police in Perugia ever connected him to these burglaries. In fact, other than Ms. Diaz, did they really have anything to connect Rudy to any of them? Not really and the truth is no community that size would see two burglaries...(Ms. Diaz and the law firm) as a wave of crimes. It only really looks like a wave of crimes when you ad the Nursery in Milan, CT and the cottage into the equation.

First of all, had he done every job you have fantasized that he did, it wouldn't even begin to rise to the level of "crime wave". We don't even know if a Senora Diaz exists, if she exists if she was robbed and if she was robbed that she fingered Rudi and if she fingered him that he did it. I don't see how someone that calls himself at all skeptical could not see the holes in this idea that Rudi stole a watch and caused a fire.

You have never denied that you would not believe CT if it hurt the kids. He just isn't credible, any more than Quintavalle, Nara and Curatolo. Just imagine he had come forward with a story after seeing the kids' pictures that went against them. He didn't bother to call the cops and tell them who had invaded his flat.

You've said that the computers had little value so crooks would have to steal a lot of them so crime must have been rampant.

Oh btw, remember that quote of yours about the wide spread and frequent mention of Diaz in the press? Can you find a few credible cites . Thanks in advance.

 

[RandyN]

I think this argument put to bed the argument that Rudy was a fence.
He simply did not have the ready cash indicating he was a fence.

Apparently we are still on the fence about this fence business?

Rudy had an aunt he stayed with in Milan. How did that fact get lost in the shuffle?

He was was caught breaking and entering, armed with a deadly weapon, and receiving and in possession of stolen property....oh and in a school. Several of those are felonies here and would call for immediate arrest and detention until a bail hearing of some sort could be held. They may not have bail in Italy as we understand it but they certainly have detention hearings we know.

Guede went to Milan to check if the school had restocked its cash drawer...simple really. No reason to fence anything but maybe he did have a contact he sold items to...who cares? It is actually unrelated to this murder he committed a bit later.

If he was a lone wolf burglar then he was limited to what he could steal since he did not have a car or wheel barrow or any sort of conveyance except his back to carry things...so what would he take? Lap Tops, valuable jewelry, cash, and other smaller items...iPods etc...In 2007 lap tops were still going for a good price but this was quickly declining...I doubt he could get more than 200 for the best.

Italy is the pickpocket capital of the world...in fact Vatican City is the best chance anyone in the world has to be picked clean of whatever is in your pockets. The thieves ride the shuttle buses there. But these guys work in teams...and RG being black in Italy would be unable to join any team there I suspect.

What remains clear is that he was unemployed and without any identifiable means of legitimate support. Do these discos in Italy have a cover charge? How does one "run" in these circles for any length of time without a job or support?

How about thief, small time drug dealer? Not all that profitable but enough to allow him some pocket change to eat and drink. I doubt Italy has such a welfare system as to allow him a full free ride...he is fit and able...just not willing to work.

And now he is getting a college education at Italian taxpayer expense...which is maybe a good idea I suppose...until he kills someone else. He should have gotten 30 year minimum with no parole...he is a killer, a rapist and a thief.

OR do you disagree StillettoAchoo? Whatever.

 

[acbytesla]

I think this argument put to bed the argument that Rudy was a fence.
He simply did not have the ready cash indicating he was a fence.

I know I'm going to get the wrath of Grinder for responding to this in this way. But here it goes. There is nothing to point to Rudy being a fence. This idea is Grinder's and Grinder's alone. I've never seen it suggested by any one else in any other forum. He posited it as a result of the Spanish girls mentioning that they saw many computers in his apartment. Grinder sees this as strange and indicative of someone trading in stolen goods.

But it isn't that simple. I'm not sure how many computers they actually saw and all this means to me is that Rudy had been unable to sell these probably stolen computers as of yet. Not that he bought them. Just that he hadn't sold them.

I see a fence as me in my job as a computer broker for many years. I'm looking to buy low and sell high. I want to buy at 10 cents on the dollar and sell at 50 cents on the dollar and sell quickly. I have a market I can move the product to quickly but I have to buy at a price that will allow me to make a profit. The last thing I want is to hold on to it for any period of time. It depreciates too fast so what was profitable one week results in a loss if I'm stuck with it the next week. My life is on the phone trying to get people interested in my product trying to get rid of it. And we don't see Rudy as a wheeler dealer since he in severely hampered in his ability to electronically stay in touch with the outside world.

As a fence, Rudy needs a market, not just a supply for his product. So he needs either a "store front" like a pawn shop or he needs a phone and he must be on it a lot. He could sell on Ebay maybe or Craigslist, but I don't think Craigslist has taken off in Europe even to this day. But if did sell on Ebay, he would need shipping accounts with maybe Fedex DHL and/or UPS. And they usually require a phone number and at least a mailing address for the COD checks.

As a fence, he has to have a supply of cash that he can give to the thieves who steal for him. Or maybe just maybe, they are fronting him the stolen product counting on him to move it. Basically on consignment. But why would they do that? Had he proven himself to be reliable and trustworthy and able to move product and provide a higher return. I don't see how Rudy could do better than they could and since there is little honor among thieves it is unlikely that they trust him to get money back to them quickly.

I don't doubt that as a thief that Rudy sold his stolen goods after all, I'm sure he was doing it for the money as well as the thrill. But that doesn't make him a fence.

 

[Desert Fox]

And now he is getting a college education at Italian taxpayer expense...which is maybe a good idea I suppose...until he kills someone else. He should have gotten 30 year minimum with no parole...he is a killer, a rapist and a thief.

OR do you disagree StillettoAchoo? Whatever.

I believe he did cover her body which generally means remorse.
It is one of the hopeful signs that he will not go back to the same activity.
However, I too am worried that some other woman will get raped and murdered by him now with years of prison smarts taught to him.