Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Strozzi]

. . . I would like to know how Meredith's DNA could have found it's way to the knife without any other DNA being on it. What do the negative control tests tell us. Clearly there is something there that shouldn't be but how does it turn into Meredith's DNA and only hers?

Stefanoni's purpose in testing the knife was to find Meredith's DNA on it, along with either Raffaele's or Amanda's. At the time she tested the knife Stefanoni knew the prosecutor and police had already extracted Amanda's confession and locked her and Raffaele up, and were crowing to the press what evil killers they had outsmarted and captured.

If Stefanoni wanted to help the evidence along, could she have placed an item with Meredith's DNA in the machine, thereby deliberately contaminating the machine, and then removed it before turning the machine on and logging a run? And follow that by doing a recorded test of matter she claims to have taken from the knife blade? If she had just contaminated the machine, would it be logical to then stop using that machine so the next logged tests do not show that the machine was dirty?

 

[Desert Fox]

Bill:
Why do you think those who are pro guilt who are not in positions of authority argue so vehemently?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill:
Why do you think those who are pro guilt who are not in positions of authority argue so vehemently?

I don't know what you mean by this question.

Still, I have no particular insight into people's make-up than any-one else. I had a psychiatrist friend who once referred to these people as "nuts".

Two problems with that assessment.

1) The sole source of his information was me..... and I'm not what you would call unbiased!!!

2) "Nuts" is not exactly a term you'd expect someone with his training to use.​

He reserved the right to use it, though.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't know what you mean by this question.

Still, I have no particular insight into people's make-up than any-one else. I had a psychiatrist friend who once referred to these people as "nuts".

Two problems with that assessment.

1) The sole source of his information was me..... and I'm not what you would call unbiased!!!

2) "Nuts" is not exactly a term you'd expect someone with his training to use.​

He reserved the right to use it, though.

Just thinking to myself I think while using a question for you to present it.
Wanted to also see how you argue the case.
Know that no matter how the evidence seems to support innocence, there are people who argue guilt.

 

[Grinder]

Bill:
Why do you think those who are pro guilt who are not in positions of authority argue so vehemently?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

[Strozzi]

Confirmation bias is the backbone of cases like this. But, as of late I am seeing it morph into some pretty farfetched ideas when it comes to this speculating about why Guede was left to go on his crime spree.

When I first started following this case there were a few comments here and there that followed the line of thinking that xinonix has expressed here. But for the most part it was ignored. Now it seems it is picking up steam. IMHO I don't see it as a good development either.

Dopre, I agree with you. I have read many comments that the police protected Rudy as an informer and so are responsible for Meredith's murder. Also conspiratorial views that the police recognized from day one that the broken window is Rudy's signature and the police were out to involve Amanda to protect Rudy. I consider such views unfounded by fact, and conspiratorial bunk. Even Steve Moore is promoting some of this, to the detriment of his other solid contributions.

It is possible that Rudy was at some point caught selling hashish or that he was named by others to the police as a dope dealer. Or that he was confronted by police if CT really ID'd him to the police, without waiting in line to file a formal report. It would not be farfetched for the police to confront Rudy and tell him "We know you're selling dope" or "We know you are stealing" and tell Rudy "You owe me" and "I can bust you". That would mean Rudy owes the police information if/when the police come around next. He would be compelled to tell them what he knows when asked about others. It would not mean that the police were giving him a license to be a drug dealer or burglar or to go on a crime spree.

I see no indication that Napoleoni or others recognized the rock as Rudy's MO. To say that the police made the connection between the earlier break-in at the lawyers' office and the sexual murder of a British student is farfetched and not supported by known facts. The overriding appearance to the police was at the murder scene was burglar-entry OR a man against a woman, and the police immediately suspected that the rock was a diversion, not the real mechanism for entry. They were looking for a date gone bad, a date turned sexual-murderer. The police were not covering for who they knew to be "rock-throwing-Rudy".

ETA: I have stated before that it must have been very trying for the police and othes to see the victim and step gingerly around her lifeless body. Given the butchery in the room, i think if Napoleoni or any other detective had put 2and 2 together and recognized the connection of the rock she would within 30 minutes have been kicking in Rudy's door.

 

[Grinder]

strozzi glad you don't go for the "perusing" but there is no evidence at all that CT told the police about Rudi. He didn't file the report at all.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill:
Why do you think those who are pro guilt who are not in positions of authority argue so vehemently?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Grinder - "No" is spelled with one "o".

Just thinking to myself I think while using a question for you to present it.
Wanted to also see how you argue the case.
Know that no matter how the evidence seems to support innocence, there are people who argue guilt.

It's confirmation bias. I have my own peculiar confirmation biases. This is not one of them. Am I "Biased"? Yes, definitely.

I think the difference is that my biases are open to scrutiny, transparent and subject to evidence.

In contrast, we've just had a poster here - the JREF skeptics site - declare that Judge Nencini has "sound reasoning" in his motivations report. This is the Judge who thinks women have y-genetic material. To be cleaqr, the reason Nencini says this is to argue against contamination of the bra-clasp: 5 semi-identifiable samples, Meredith's, a sample of a male of which Raffaele cannot be ruled out and.....

1) presumably Meredith's boyfriend's, which Nencini just assumes. This could be Rudy's, this could be some unknown man (Grinder might say it is Koko!), but Nencini's "stellar reasoning" is not to engage in any reason at all, it's just an assumption.

2) But wait for it.... there are two more Y-Haplotypes Stefanoni identified and Conti/Vecchiotti confirmed. What does Nencini say about them?​

​

He says they belong to some of Meredith's girlfriends (amica). This previously mentioned poster - who posts "non-lies" of Amanda's ad infinitum, while ignoring Nencini all together (except to say Nencini has sound reasoning)....

.... Nencini says this because to have two-more men on that clasp DOES speak to contamination, because perhaps the only thing we can agree upon is that Meredith, although with a sex-life (enough to borrow condoms from friends because she's a responsible adult), did not have that-much of a sex life.

So why do I think the non-expert guilters argue so vehemently? Especially in the face of Nencini's patent absurdities?

I go with my psychiatrist friend. They're nuts.

 

[Desert Fox]

Bill:
I know about the strangeness of the Y-Hap females and tried to come up with absurd explanations for it. Don't need to tell me that his verdict just seems nuts.

 

[platonov]

Know your market

This statement is predicated only on the word of the powerful and connected public relations campaign engaged by the Knox/Mellas/Sollecito families to spread misinformation and confuse the casual observer. It is featured as #32 on a brand new list of the Top 50 lies produced and disseminated by the anti-Kercher brigade. The list is reprinted here so you can see how substantial it is:

1. Knox was summoned to the Perugia central police station on 5 November 2007.
2. Knox was subjected to an all-night interrogation on 5/6 November.
3. Knox wasn’t provided with an interpreter for her questioning on 5 November 2007.
4. Knox wasn’t given anything to eat or drink.
5. Knox was yelled at and beaten by the police.
6. Knox was refused a lawyer.
7. Knox was tag-teamed by two police officers every hour.
8. Knox was asked to imagine what might have happened.
9. Knox claimed she had had a “dream” or “vision” that she was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered.
10. Amanda Knox was questioned in Italian.
11. Dr Mignini questioned Knox on 5 November 2007.
12. Knox didn’t confess until 6am.
13. Knox retracted her allegation against Lumumba immediately.
14. In the days following Meredith’s murder, Knox voluntarily stayed in Perugia to help the police.
15. All of Meredith’s friends left immediately.
16. There were only two tiny pieces of DNA evidence that implicated her, but they were probably contaminated.
17. The knife has essentially been thrown out.
18. The knife doesn’t match any of the wounds on Meredith’s body.
19. The DNA on the blade could match half the population of Italy.
20. Meredith’s DNA wasn’t found on the blade of the knife.
21. No other knives were taken from Sollecito’s apartment.
22. The knife was chosen at random.
23. No control tests were done.
24. There is no evidence of Amanda Knox at the actual crime scene.
25. None of the Luminol* stains contained Meredith’s DNA.
26. Mignini is persecuting Amanda Knox.
27. Mignini claimed Meredith was killed as part of a satanic ritual.
28. Mignini claimed Meredith was killed in a sex game that went wrong.
29. Mignini called Amanda Knox a “she-devil.”
30. Dr Mignini was convicted of a felony and faced prison.
31. Rudy Guede was a drifter.
32. Guede had a criminal record at the time of the murder.
33. Guede left his DNA all over Meredith and all over the crime scene.
34. Guede left his semen at the crime scene.
35. Guede left his DNA inside Meredith’s bag.
36. Guede left his bloody fingerprints all over the crime scene.
37. Guede left his hair at the crime scene.
38. Guede pleaded guilty or confessed.
39. Guede’s prison sentence was reduced because he made a deal with the prosecutors.
40. Guede didn’t implicate Knox and Sollecito until much later.
41. Amanda Knox didn’t know Rudy Guede.
42. Raffaele Sollecito had never been in trouble with the police.
43. Sollecito had an impeccable track record.
44. Sollecito couldn’t confirm Knox’s alibi because he was sleeping.
45. Amanda Knox had never been in trouble with the police.
46. Amanda Knox was retried for the same crimes.
47. The Italian Supreme Court ruled that Amanda Knox’s interrogation was illegal.
48. The Supreme Court threw out Amanda Knox’s statements.
49. Dr. Stefanoni and the forensic technicians broke international protocols.
50. Amanda Knox is being railroaded or framed.

The full text is available at the TJMK and is even now being tweeted and retweeted to concerned individuals in the media.

At the JREF, we have become accustomed to exploding myths and relying purely on documentation such as the compelling reasoning of Judges Nencini, Micheli, Matteini, and Massei, along with strong scientific support and unbiased judgement. The list above was compiled by one of the most vigorous on-line supporters of victims' rights and all sources are properly attributed.

This document might become a good start for those new to the case who still labour under the illusion that Amanda and Raffaele were not responsible for Meredith Kercher's death.

But but .... apart from all that [ minor details really ] they got the big picture right surely.

Correct me if I am wrong but

1. Manders is hawt, white and american.

2. RG is black

3. Italians are (dusky) foreigners

4. .. as was the victim.

Case closed (as they apparently say in Italian). No ?

 

[Strozzi]

strozzi glad you don't go for the "perusing" but there is no evidence at all that CT told the police about Rudi. He didn't file the report at all.

I agree with you. What kind of crowd was at the police station that kept CT from formally reporting the crime? The story is Rudy pulled a knife on CT. If CT had gone to the station he would be angry enough about the break-in and knife to make the report. I don't believe he went and then abandoned his mission.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill:
I know about the strangeness of the Y-Hap females and tried to come up with absurd explanations for it. Don't need to tell me that his verdict just seems nuts.

Posters here say that guilters are making good use of twitter to contact members of the media.

My hope is that they tweeted Harry Rag's recent musings on feminism. That one was a hoot!

 

[Strozzi]

. . . But wait for it.... there are two more Y-Haplotypes Stefanoni identified and Conti/Vecchiotti confirmed. What does Nencini say about them? . . .

He says they belong to some of Meredith's girlfriends (amica). . .

I've wondered about Meredith's girlfriends. Especially Sophie. What does Nencini think she has in her genes?

 

[Samson]

I agree with you. What kind of crowd was at the police station that kept CT from formally reporting the crime? The story is Rudy pulled a knife on CT. If CT had gone to the station he would be angry enough about the break-in and knife to make the report. I don't believe he went and then abandoned his mission.

I find it believable. In my opinion his testimony would work strongly in favour of A and R because threatening with knives is in reality quite uncommon, and powerfully points to Rudy as Meredith's killer, and make Nencini's report putting knives in the hands of others challengeable.

 

[Desert Fox]

Posters here say that guilters are making good use of twitter to contact members of the media.

My hope is that they tweeted Harry Rag's recent musings on feminism. That one was a hoot!

Are there any forensic experts besides those in the Italian Police Force who argue that the forensic export supports guilt?

 

[Bill Williams]

Are there any forensic experts besides those in the Italian Police Force who argue that the forensic export supports guilt?

I know of none. I know that there are guilters here who could enlighten us. They never do.

 

[Desert Fox]

I know of none. I know that there are guilters here who could enlighten us. They never do.

All they do is prove lists of supposed pro innocence lies. . . .Some items we argues with others we don't.

 

[xinonix]

The guilters can not answer your questions because they are not talking about something that happened in real life. They are talking about a story. They can only repeat parts of the story. If they come up with something original to answer you there is a risk that the answer will conflict with the story.

 

[xinonix]

"Correct me if I am wrong but

1. Manders is hawt, white and american.

2. RG is black

3. Italians are (dusky) foreigners

4. .. as was the victim.

Case closed (as they apparently say in Italian). No ? "

Not all Italians are dusky. There are many Italians in Northern Italy who are about as fair skinned and blonde haired as anybody.

 

[Desert Fox]

The guilters can not answer your questions because they are not talking about something that happened in real life. They are talking about a story. They can only repeat parts of the story. If they come up with something original to answer you there is a risk that the answer will conflict with the story.

I have written a number of stories and they are far more consistent than what I have heard from the pro-guilt crowd.