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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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i am somewhere between Fred Singer and Guy McPherson :D

LOL, I'm torn between calling that an extremely large, all-encompassing, group and a null group depending upon my minute-to-minute considerations of Singer,...oops, wait a minute, I may have been confusing Guy McPherson with Guy Fawkes,...nevermind!

:)
 
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I hope that my "ransom note" postings are not as bothersome as your comments suggest. I try to limit paper quotes to pay-walled papers that others may not have access to or screenshots that encapsulate hundreds of words of explanation.

You know me, that I have a knack for the dramatic, and that I unleash it here because it serves to my purpose of thinking in English. Everybody have told me all my life that I have a ******** awful way to be right. Yet, many seek my advice because of that.

You -everybody in fact- shouldn't feel specially addressed when I reply your words to make my rants about how bad the world has become. It's the age old story that keeps repeating and that will probably become the old age story as with so many ones before and after.

Take my words more like Galilean dialogues and don't hold back to tell me the points when I'm depicting too doofus the opposite side.
 
I seems to me you lost what I meant by 25%. I was a 25% more, per year

It's not what you said Alec....people are not mind readers and all to often you expect them to be.
You left it open.
Despite that - 25% of the influence remaining for centuries is significant regardless.

As he points out....there is too much reliance that the CO2 levels will correct in reasonable time frames it we stop adding to them.
They won't.

At what point do we level off??

What is a reasonable guess for level to peak at??

Taking that into account what does the slope to less emissions look like.


What will the results of those over the next centuries....
That's what the various scenarios cover off up to the RCP8.5
Very much the results depend on the still rather iffy climate sensitivity.

••

Beyond that...

What is a sustainable level of emissions....ANY???

•••

Cute signature very appropo to this thread...

"A lack of planning on your part should not constitute an emergency on mine."
 
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To the extent of my knowledge, IPCC panels are a little bit conservative as they should be. And there's a giant misconception about the number and validity of those papers supporting "it's worse than we thought!". If I have to describe at a glance the difference between my involvement in these matters at forums.randi.org (and other fora) during 5 years as opposed to my involvement with these matters in real life for a longer time, I would say this:

a) Internet debate is clearly denialist-driven and pretty much unscientific.
b) Internet debate has little connexion with general education of the big public. It's like here; they can't teach what a strawman is because themselves ignore what it is, that's why so many strawmen are stuffed here and pass undetected while the same posters accuse others of strawmanization, for instance, to censor their ironic remarks.
c) Internet debate, as part of its unscientificity -four-dollar word if any-, is pretty much innumerate, asystemic and barely logical.
d) Internet debate is uncooperative, and elements of life that are completely alien to science take control, like proof within the adversarial system of justice, propaganda, political advocacy, etc.

Within this depiction falls a sad fact involving scientific papers, popular science and all that lies in between. The fact that a paper from 2009 finds some scenario laid out in 1995 to be wrong or improvable by using models, leftovers (like the microns in that sad sea ice debate) and by doing so it tells everything is worse than expected should be a warning about the quality of such papers. Late papers are most probable to fall into the opportunistic-to-make-a-name-for-ourselves category and not in the breakthrough one. On the contrary, and what a surprise in that, there are much fewer late papers saying that everything is about the same, with more accent in this and less accent in that, and even fewer papers saying it's better than thought. And nobody is citing them here (or there), why? because they don't satisfy the wished level of confirmation or alarm.

There's no worse and abject cherrypicking than googling and selecting a trio of abstracts from peer reviewed papers with similar conclusions. The right thing to do is selecting three because of their inherent quality, from a group of 10 or more, including the willful search for opposite conclusions.

Denialists had the public perceiving that AGW yes and no has a 60% - 40% share in the scientific production, so the question is still unsettled. In reality it's 97% vs 3%, the question is settled, but warmists have the public perceiving that those 3% are bad papers and those 97% are mostly good, what is as shameful as what denialists do, specially when they cherrypick from that 97% not for quality but for conclusion.

That's why IPCC ARs look so complicated yet a little bit hesitant. Science is there.

Sounds like selective support for a preferred position, both in the arguments you portray above and in your own presentation of the issues as well?

I do not deny a bias towards the research and findings of the leaders in the various fields that compose climate science, nor do I deny a bias towards the relevant findings in fields where my personal education and experience is the greatest. That said, I do not Google search for confirmation which seems a rather akin to the pseudoscience practice of coming up with a belief and then trying to find support for that belief. I may weight my data sources differently, in that I emphasize and focus upon some authors and fields of study more than others, but it would be disingenuous to try to gain understanding about a problem by deciding ahead of time what the answers are and then only looking up information that presented those answers.
 
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You know me, that I have a knack for the dramatic, and that I unleash it here because it serves to my purpose of thinking in English. Everybody have told me all my life that I have a ******** awful way to be right. Yet, many seek my advice because of that.

You -everybody in fact- shouldn't feel specially addressed when I reply your words to make my rants about how bad the world has become. It's the age old story that keeps repeating and that will probably become the old age story as with so many ones before and after.

Take my words more like Galilean dialogues and don't hold back to tell me the points when I'm depicting too doofus the opposite side.

In general, I don't take message board discussions too seriously. I occasionally get more than a bit acerbic when I take on more simultaneous tasks than I should. I don't intend to come across as I occasionally do, and I publically apologize to any I may personally offend along the way. I've no problem taking a sledge-hammer to ideas and considerations, but I strive not to attack people.
 
There's a common assumption among common people that positive feedback is mostly a snowball effect or a domino effect, and that negative feedback will keep anything locked the way it is.

.

Doesn't matter what people "assume"...the definition of a positive feedback loop is fixed. I am an RN, in biology, a positive feedback loop example is contractions during delivery cause oxytocin to be produced which increase amplitude/frequency of contractions, causing more oxytocin to be produced during labor and delivery of an infant. In electronics, it is feedback in which the output quantity or signal adds to the input quantity or signal. Positive feedback is responsible for the squealing of microphones when placed too close to the speaker through which their input signals are amplified.

Negative feedback loops DO keep things locked the way they are. An example would be a thermostat. The heat in a room rises, the Air Conditioning comes on, cooling it down then shutting the air conditioning off. There is a semi-stasis in a negative feedback loop that does not exist in a positive loop.
 
To the extent of my knowledge, IPCC panels are a little bit conservative as they should be. And there's a giant misconception about the number and validity of those papers supporting "it's worse than we thought!". If I have to describe at a glance the difference between my involvement in these matters at forums.randi.org (and other fora) during 5 years as opposed to my involvement with these matters in real life for a longer time, I would say this:

a) Internet debate is clearly denialist-driven and pretty much unscientific.
b) Internet debate has little connexion with general education of the big public. It's like here; they can't teach what a strawman is because themselves ignore what it is, that's why so many strawmen are stuffed here and pass undetected while the same posters accuse others of strawmanization, for instance, to censor their ironic remarks.
c) Internet debate, as part of its unscientificity -four-dollar word if any-, is pretty much innumerate, asystemic and barely logical.
d) Internet debate is uncooperative, and elements of life that are completely alien to science take control, like proof within the adversarial system of justice, propaganda, political advocacy, etc.

Within this depiction falls a sad fact involving scientific papers, popular science and all that lies in between. The fact that a paper from 2009 finds some scenario laid out in 1995 to be wrong or improvable by using models, leftovers (like the microns in that sad sea ice debate) and by doing so it tells everything is worse than expected should be a warning about the quality of such papers. Late papers are most probable to fall into the opportunistic-to-make-a-name-for-ourselves category and not in the breakthrough one. On the contrary, and what a surprise in that, there are much fewer late papers saying that everything is about the same, with more accent in this and less accent in that, and even fewer papers saying it's better than thought. And nobody is citing them here (or there), why? because they don't satisfy the wished level of confirmation or alarm.

There's no worse and abject cherrypicking than googling and selecting a trio of abstracts from peer reviewed papers with similar conclusions. The right thing to do is selecting three because of their inherent quality, from a group of 10 or more, including the willful search for opposite conclusions.

Denialists had the public perceiving that AGW yes and no has a 60% - 40% share in the scientific production, so the question is still unsettled. In reality it's 97% vs 3%, the question is settled, but warmists have the public perceiving that those 3% are bad papers and those 97% are mostly good, what is as shameful as what denialists do, specially when they cherrypick from that 97% not for quality but for conclusion.
That's why IPCC ARs look so complicated yet a little bit hesitant. Science is there.

I have an idea Alec. If you think that someone's post exagerates the problem then say so at your earliest convenience and point out why. If someone disagrees they will say so. That way we all learn and that is how forums are supposed to work. Cluttering up the thread with statements saying that everyone is doing it all wrong and we should follow your lead achieves nothing. In fact it's more what we have come to expect from certain trolls in this thread.

ETA If as you say that the IPCC are being slightly conservative in their predictions I'm not quite sure where these alarmists posts are that you speak of. I would say that nearly all of the posts by people who think that AGW is real are in line with the predictions made by the IPCC.
 
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You mention positive feedback loops...are there any known negative feedback loops at work here?

There are both positive and negative feedback loops in play but multiple lines of research show net positive feedback.

For example the orbital cycles that trigger glaciations and de-glaciations are actually very small in their total forcing, a net negative forcing and even a very low positive net feedback would preclude this glaciation cycle from happening.


It is more complex than just CO2 and temp are directly proportional. Thoughts?
Greenhouse gas forcing are logarithmic. For example CO2 concentrations need to double to get an ~3 deg C increase in global temperature. I.E. 250 ppm – 500 ppm for the first 3 deg, 500ppm – 1000ppm for the second 3 deg.

There are more forcing than just CO2 to worry about and other sources of CO2 release that can be triggered by the warming we are creating.
 
The frightening thing to me is that as ice sheets melt, it stops reflecting the sunlight and absorbs more, causing a POSITIVE feedback loop. From human cause or natural cause, once that starts on a large scale, the temps will skyrocket.

While that is certainly a factor, the really scary prospect is all the CO2 and Methane naturally locked up in permafrost and oceans that can be released by warming temperatures.
 
In general, I don't take message board discussions too seriously..
Then you are wiser than most. I view them as bad comedy much of the time.
well increased rates of warming are far more realistic than any cooling.
Except that we are seeing cooling now. When CO2 level are the highest ever.

just a few weeks ago i listened to a NASA press converence about their new paper about 6 glaciers in Antarctica, they claimed the melting that is going on there is now unstoppable (i would Claim we could stop it if we really wanted and ignore costs). but still it will take several 100 years for them to melt.
I saw a paper that says the melting is from volcanoes and heat under the glaciers.

The temperatures in the Antarctic are still nowhere close enough to melt the glaciers. Neither are sea temperatures.
 
Then you are wiser than most. I view them as bad comedy much of the time.
Except that we are seeing cooling now. When CO2 level are the highest ever.

I saw a paper that says the melting is from volcanoes and heat under the glaciers.

The temperatures in the Antarctic are still nowhere close enough to melt the glaciers. Neither are sea temperatures.

How can the earth be cooling when the thirteen hottest years since records began have been this century and the last year with average temperatures below the 20th century average was 1976?
I suspect as well that what you have read about volcanoes and glaciers wasn't the paper itself but the wattsupwiththat interpretation of it.
 
Doesn't matter what people "assume"...the definition of a positive feedback loop is fixed. I am an RN, in biology, a positive feedback loop example is contractions during delivery cause oxytocin to be produced which increase amplitude/frequency of contractions, causing more oxytocin to be produced during labor and delivery of an infant. In electronics, it is feedback in which the output quantity or signal adds to the input quantity or signal. Positive feedback is responsible for the squealing of microphones when placed too close to the speaker through which their input signals are amplified.

Negative feedback loops DO keep things locked the way they are. An example would be a thermostat. The heat in a room rises, the Air Conditioning comes on, cooling it down then shutting the air conditioning off. There is a semi-stasis in a negative feedback loop that does not exist in a positive loop.

Not quite. You are confusing positive feedback with system stability. For systems without a time delay element negative feedback enhances stability while positive feedback degrades it. This doesn’t mean positive feedback automatically drives the system to instability. For stable cases positive feedback acts as amplification, it makes smaller signals larger. Negative feedback does the opposite and reduces the response to any change.

Time delays can change everything making negative feedback systems unstable and in some cases even make an otherwise unstable positive feedback system stable. For example let’s say you have a thermostat on the opposite side of the room t your heat source. The room cools so the thermostat kicks in, but it takes time for the heat at one end of the room to reach the thermostat. The heat source keeps warming the room even though most of it is well above the temperature it was supposed to shut off. When it does finally shut off the room is much warmer than it’s supposed to be.

It then starts to cool, but again it takes time for that cooling to reach the side of the room where the thermostat is. Once again the side of the room where the thermostat is located is the last to drop below the threshold temperature and the rest of the room is much colder than it’s supposed to be.

In this example, even though the thermostat is configured to oppose any change in room temperature (negative feedback) the system itself is unstable so the room temperature swings wildly from hot – cold – hot.
 
Originally Posted by PossumPie View Post
You mention positive feedback loops...are there any known negative feedback loops at work here?

The only one I have come across that is substantive is

Interesting bit of negative feedback ....


For the first time, scientists have discovered how tree roots in the mountains may play an important role in controlling long-term global temperatures.

Researchers from Oxford and Sheffield Universities have found that temperatures affect the thickness of the leaf litter and organic soil layers, as well as the rate at which the tree roots grow. In a warmer world, this means that tree roots are more likely to grow into the mineral layer of the soil, breaking down rock into component parts which will eventually combine with carbon dioxide. This process, called weathering, draws carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and cools the planet. The researchers say this theory suggests that mountainous ecosystems have acted like Earth's thermostat, addressing the risk of 'catastrophic' overheating or cooling over millions of years
more

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0205210436.htm
 
I saw a paper that says the melting is from volcanoes and heat under the glaciers.

Volcanoes don’t emit anywhere near enough heat energy to melt significant masses of ice.

To melt 1 Km^3 of ice the phase change energy alone is:
334 J/g *10^3g/Kg * 10^3 Kg/m^3 * 10^9m^/Km^3 = 3.34*10^17J/Km^3

The energy output of largest volcanic eruption in recorded history, the 1883 Krakatoa eruption, is estimated to be 8*19^17J. Enough to melt ~2 Km^3 worth of ice.

Greenland is currently losing ~500Km^3 ice every year...
 
It's not what you said Alec....people are not mind readers and all to often you expect them to be.
You left it open.
Despite that - 25% of the influence remaining for centuries is significant regardless.

As he points out....there is too much reliance that the CO2 levels will correct in reasonable time frames it we stop adding to them.
They won't.

At what point do we level off??

What is a reasonable guess for level to peak at??

Taking that into account what does the slope to less emissions look like.


What will the results of those over the next centuries....
That's what the various scenarios cover off up to the RCP8.5
Very much the results depend on the still rather iffy climate sensitivity.

••

Beyond that...

What is a sustainable level of emissions....ANY???

•••

Cute signature very appropo to this thread...

"A lack of planning on your part should not constitute an emergency on mine."

I'm sorry. I mistook that 25% for the one I had used in my reply to CoolSkeptic.

So you essentially rejected my rejection of that notion by sending me to read something that is not a paper, and by arguing with somebody that looks, is or poses as an authority in the field. I would read the paper where that 25% is estimated in order to start comparing both hypothesis and frames. Tell me where to find it. If those hypothesis are different, something can be discussed. If those hypothesis are similar, I'll learn something. If frames are different, I'll reproach you. D'accord?

Wasn't that part of my post saying "if we stop emissions cold turkey today"? Let me tell you, you keep quoting isolated chunks and you erase -intentionally? accidentally? sloppily? dismissively? inadvertently? jokingly? macintoshingly?- all references and links to the original post containing the quote, what makes it difficult to follow.
 
How can the earth be cooling when the thirteen hottest years since records began have been this century and the last year with average temperatures below the 20th century average was 1976?
It's not cooling like you imagine. Nobody is saying "global temperatures have cooled down to levels seen in the 1960s". That would certainly be unlikely. If we could have a discussion about this, that would be great.

I suspect as well that what you have read about volcanoes and glaciers wasn't the paper itself but the wattsupwiththat interpretation of it.
You would be wrong as usual.
Researchers find major West Antarctic glacier melting from geothermal sources
http://phys.org/news/2014-06-major-west-antarctic-glacier-geothermal.html#jCp
Geothermal activity under parts of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is causing rapid glacial melting that impacts global sea level rise, a new study confirms
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/06/10/4021650.htm

Earthquakes deep below West Antarctica reveal an active volcano hidden beneath the massive ice sheet, researchers said today (Nov. 17) in a study published in the journal Nature Geoscience.
http://www.livescience.com/41262-west-antarctica-new-volcano-discovered.html
A two-month-long expedition to one of the most remote sites on the planet — the sprawling Pine Island Glacier in Antarctica — has revealed that currents of warm water beneath the glacier are melting the ice at a staggering rate of about 2.4 inches (6 centimeters) per day.
http://www.livescience.com/39606-melting-ice-pine-island-glacier.html
 
Doesn't matter what people "assume"...the definition of a positive feedback loop is fixed. I am an RN, in biology, a positive feedback loop example is contractions during delivery cause oxytocin to be produced which increase amplitude/frequency of contractions, causing more oxytocin to be produced during labor and delivery of an infant. In electronics, it is feedback in which the output quantity or signal adds to the input quantity or signal. Positive feedback is responsible for the squealing of microphones when placed too close to the speaker through which their input signals are amplified.

Negative feedback loops DO keep things locked the way they are. An example would be a thermostat. The heat in a room rises, the Air Conditioning comes on, cooling it down then shutting the air conditioning off. There is a semi-stasis in a negative feedback loop that does not exist in a positive loop.

What the heck are you talking about!!!???

Tell me the answer to this extremely simple question:

If a linear system has an original input of 1 which causes an output of 2 and a 10% of the output is feed back to the input and added (positive feedback) or subtracted (negative feedback), what is the final value of the output in both situations? What happens if that 10% increases to 50%? and to 80%?

One you have that, we can go back to your examples and looks how your squealing microphone contains many feedbacks, one positive, one negative, one controlling, and some others that in reality are only two -for the squealing part- and one -for the non-squealing part of the band-. Or looking into how you mix up controlling structures with signals in your thermostat.

Geeeeezzz! No wonder!

And to those ones thinking in stick their oars in this, be sure to be discussing feedback in terms of climate science and not in terms of other disciplines, like information theory, administration and a lot more. I'm not here talking of Schrödinger's or Einstein's as basis for Lévy-Bruhl's thinking, so to speak.
 
It's not cooling like you imagine. Nobody is saying "global temperatures have cooled down to levels seen in the 1960s". That would certainly be unlikely. If we could have a discussion about this, that would be great.
Which doesn't explain how the thirteen warmest years globally were this century. I know what your explanation is of this is r-j because it was contained in a post that was moved to the conspiracy section. You think the data is being manipulated either by gross incompetence or by a conspiracy to show temperatures warmer than they really are.
 
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Then you are wiser than most. I view them as bad comedy much of the time.
Except that we are seeing cooling now. When CO2 level are the highest ever.

I saw a paper that says the melting is from volcanoes and heat under the glaciers.

The temperatures in the Antarctic are still nowhere close enough to melt the glaciers. Neither are sea temperatures.


i see no global cooling trend.
do you have any evidence of global cooling?

http://www.ncaor.gov.in/files/Science_News/antarctic-news-28-03-14.pdf
 
I have an idea Alec. If you think that someone's post exagerates the problem then say so at your earliest convenience and point out why. If someone disagrees they will say so. That way we all learn and that is how forums are supposed to work. Cluttering up the thread with statements saying that everyone is doing it all wrong and we should follow your lead achieves nothing. In fact it's more what we have come to expect from certain trolls in this thread.

That post and other few like it are meant to trigger reflection. If you felt to be a sinner because someone is speaking of sin around you, that would be your problem, not other's. Leading, taking the lead ... what are you talking about, man? what importance might that have? Anywhere, there's no mandatory reading. Cluttering? tell me how much time takes you to scroll them down and I'll write you a cheque. If they don't appear to be meant to trigger reflection is good of you to point that out. The rest is free speech, yours and mine.

ETA If as you say that the IPCC are being slightly conservative in their predictions I'm not quite sure where these alarmists posts are that you speak of. I would say that nearly all of the posts by people who think that AGW is real are in line with the predictions made by the IPCC.

Then you were reading other thread.

There hasn't been, are or will be IPCC material regarding future temperatures that is telling all the elements in the scenario to be true, unchangeable or both. All the conversation about temperature rise by 2100 is off in such a way, and it repeats here periodically with the same absurd framing that I can't decide if I'll cut my veins or I'll let them grow long and mat them into dreadlocks (attempt to match the logic level of such debate).
 
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