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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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I agree with you that we are unlikely to take much significant effective action towards reducing GHG emissions, although I'm not so much pessimistic on that point.

I strongly disagree that the numbers in the IPCC report are remotely credible, though. Obviously I'll never persuade the true believers that populate this thread, but just making the statement for the record ;)

you got better projections than those from the IPCC?
 
I agree with you that we are unlikely to take much significant effective action towards reducing GHG emissions, although I'm not so much pessimistic on that point.

I strongly disagree that the numbers in the IPCC report are remotely credible, though. Obviously I'll never persuade the true believers that populate this thread, but just making the statement for the record ;)

By true believers presumably you mean those who take the same position as the IPCC, the vast majority of scientific papers published on the subject (which is where the science that makes up the IPCC reports is from) and every scientific organisation in the world. All you have done so far is say that you don't believe them with no factual argument to back it up. I'm constantly living in hope that someone will come in to this thread with an argument that shows that scientists are wrong and we can continue to emit billions of tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere without serious consequences. So far I have been sorely disappointed.
 
well increased rates of warming are far more realistic than any cooling.

the CO2 forcing is getting bigger and bigger. positive feedbacks are getting stronger, less sea ice = albedo change etc.

no forcing in sight that could bring any cooling.

You mention positive feedback loops...are there any known negative feedback loops at work here? It is more complex than just CO2 and temp are directly proportional. Thoughts?
 
You mention positive feedback loops...are there any known negative feedback loops at work here? It is more complex than just CO2 and temp are directly proportional. Thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_feedback#Negative
http://climate.nasa.gov/nasa_role/science

here are a few but there are more.

what is really relevant is the net feedback. and afaik we don't expect that to be negative.

but others here can tell you surely more details about it.
 
http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/figures/WGI_AR5_Fig12-3.jpg
(graph a )
SRES - A2 looks to be hitting ~7°C by 2100; there was a time I would have considered that horrifying to contemplate, now, I merely consider that an unrealistically conservative estimation for BAU.

Pardon? Where are those 7°C? Pressed to reply in an instant answer I would say that those 7°C require 25 to 30 W/m2 of total forcing and centuries for the ocean to match. Nothing in that figure can suggest that by "short-termed" 2100 both the ocean and its much dependant natural forcing are going to match the difference no matter which scenario you choose.

Hey, pals. Isn't time to "unrev" the engines and read? AR4 and models from the nineties are long gone and belong to the times when denialism ruled the earth. Are 'em denialists not only choosing the topics but also keeping the clock 15 years behind?
 
Alec


argue with Archer...is 25% an "important part"??



http://www.nature.com/climate/2008/0812/full/climate.2008.122.html

I seems to me you lost what I meant by 25%. I was a 25% more, per year. Forgive me but it seems you -and not only you- are reading what you want to read and not what is written. Not getting what a paragraph was meant for, I accept, but I ain't here to play no-ones imaginary friend -or enemy-.

There's a limit on blaming ESL also.
 
I haz a question on AR5..

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...Gc0/AWwX3nxjcmE/s640/WGI_AR5_FigFAQ12.3-1.jpg

2.4 to 3.5 C maximum

versus from the same graph ensembles.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAGc4/zWSrFGjKlEU/s720/WGI_AR5_Fig12-5.jpg

2. to 5 :confused:

Taking out further.....:eek:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAGdM/Go1kwvg2QSM/s512/WGI_AR5_Fig12-44.jpg

Geez that is NOT long term in human history terms.....2000 ppm!!!!!

No wonder the Germans are dour...



http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~mmalte/rcps/

Key item

Do nothing I assume is RCP8.5



https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...Gdw/HvlNtBRsNY4/s800/RadiativeForcingRCPs.jpg


Well there seems no question we COULD push 4.5C by 2100 :boggled:

I can't follow your reasoning here very well. I'll give it a try again later. Just a few loose comments.

Some radiative forcing formulas have changed along the ARs and a computer model based on those crude formulas would be a very primitive model, like early eighties. So the 8.5, 4.5 and so, and the actual contemporary results may vary a lot.

Many models, regular, good and excellent, were used for those ensembles. The excellent ones are always in the lower side of the bands. Why do they keep the regular ones? Well, plurality is much needed, but those "regular" models are very good indeed in the short term, let's say 20 years. They sometimes match the recent past much better than the excellent ones, and no wonder, as the excellent ones with their extremely demanding ocean systems and whatnot easily show that the race for perfection is its first tens of metres. Models complement each other, and dispersion is much more welcome than bias.

AR5 shows like no report before how complex and varied climate change has become as a discipline.
 
I strongly disagree that the numbers in the IPCC report are remotely credible, though. Obviously I'll never persuade the true believers that populate this thread, but just making the statement for the record ;)

In that case, taking the opportunity like you, and following a similar epistemologic approach than yours, I want to state for the record that I've been a good boy and I expect Santa is bringing me a huge global cooling next Xmas.

I want to make angels in the snow, in December, at Buenos Aires. And I'm more optimistic about it than you, because optimism and pessimism are very essential to such epistemologic approaches.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_feedback#Negative
http://climate.nasa.gov/nasa_role/science

here are a few but there are more.

what is really relevant is the net feedback. and afaik we don't expect that to be negative.

but others here can tell you surely more details about it.

The frightening thing to me is that as ice sheets melt, it stops reflecting the sunlight and absorbs more, causing a POSITIVE feedback loop. From human cause or natural cause, once that starts on a large scale, the temps will skyrocket.
 
The frightening thing to me is that as ice sheets melt, it stops reflecting the sunlight and absorbs more, causing a POSITIVE feedback loop. From human cause or natural cause, once that starts on a large scale, the temps will skyrocket.

not sure if i would call it skyrocket. but it's surely a serious Feedback

just a few weeks ago i listened to a NASA press converence about their new paper about 6 glaciers in Antarctica, they claimed the melting that is going on there is now unstoppable (i would Claim we could stop it if we really wanted and ignore costs). but still it will take several 100 years for them to melt.
 
The frightening thing to me is that as ice sheets melt, it stops reflecting the sunlight and absorbs more, causing a POSITIVE feedback loop. From human cause or natural cause, once that starts on a large scale, the temps will skyrocket.

There's a common assumption among common people that positive feedback is mostly a snowball effect or a domino effect, and that negative feedback will keep anything locked the way it is.

Global warming denialists and alarmists tend to see things one of those ways. Guess who do what.

With such a behaviour you bump into denialists that will tell you that the breach in the hull won't sink the ship because Jimmy is gonna pat the water out of the board with his bare hands and he can pat really fast. Some on-steroids denialists would even say that the ship -breach and all- is going to lift off only based on the patting. The same way, some alarmists are going to tell you that no matter you have a bilge pump and unattended hair fracture in the hull is going to sink you without hope unless you agree with them immediately.
 
The frightening thing to me is that as ice sheets melt, it stops reflecting the sunlight and absorbs more, causing a POSITIVE feedback loop. From human cause or natural cause, once that starts on a large scale, the temps will skyrocket.

Sorry, I forgot the most important I wanted to tell you. In this reflecting-absorbing sunlight business, don't worry a lot about losing ice in the Northern Hemisphere. Snow coverage in far more important. And winter events are not as important in the global picture (In the local picture, they're it all). By far, the most important contributor is Antarctic ice and, as for reflectance, it's not in real danger in the short term.
 
Pardon? Where are those 7°C? Pressed to reply in an instant answer I would say that those 7°C require 25 to 30 W/m2 of total forcing and centuries for the ocean to match. Nothing in that figure can suggest that by "short-termed" 2100 both the ocean and its much dependant natural forcing are going to match the difference no matter which scenario you choose.

Hey, pals. Isn't time to "unrev" the engines and read? AR4 and models from the nineties are long gone and belong to the times when denialism ruled the earth. Are 'em denialists not only choosing the topics but also keeping the clock 15 years behind?

My apologies, I was wrapping up my time online and looked at the graphs in a rather cursory manner. The graph I looked at (12.3a) the vertical axis is in Watts/M2 not degrees C, huge difference, my mistake. Dismay at the IPCC remains, but is mostly focused on the conundrum about why they are increasing the level of conservatism of their estimations, particularly when the science has been steadily demonstrating the errors of that practice throughout AR1-4. Findings that increasingly support higher CO2 emissions than earlier studies estimated, over shorter time frames, and generating stronger environmental responses from such factors. I hope the IPCC reviewers are more correct this time than they have been in the past, though reducing estimates doesn't seem to be the right direction to go when you have consistently been under-estimating effects more and more with each report released thus far.
 
There's a common assumption among common people that positive feedback is mostly a snowball effect or a domino effect, and that negative feedback will keep anything locked the way it is.

Global warming denialists and alarmists tend to see things one of those ways. Guess who do what.

With such a behaviour you bump into denialists that will tell you that the breach in the hull won't sink the ship because Jimmy is gonna pat the water out of the board with his bare hands and he can pat really fast. Some on-steroids denialists would even say that the ship -breach and all- is going to lift off only based on the patting. The same way, some alarmists are going to tell you that no matter you have a bilge pump and unattended hair fracture in the hull is going to sink you without hope unless you agree with them immediately.

Which category do you place yourself in? Most people, regardless of how others might rate them, place themselves in the centrist, neutral position, and can easily point out extremists on either side of them to support their contentions. Mainstream scientists generally place themselves as overly conservative with regards to their public expressions and findings, though they may lean towards one direction or the other depending upon what their own researches indicate.
 
Which category do you place yourself in? Most people, regardless of how others might rate them, place themselves in the centrist, neutral position, and can easily point out extremists on either side of them to support their contentions. Mainstream scientists generally place themselves as overly conservative with regards to their public expressions and findings, though they may lean towards one direction or the other depending upon what their own researches indicate.

Of course I am the exclusive owner of the whole, only and holly truth, if you asked that, but my immense humility prevents me from bragging about it more than twice a century. Did I pass the Turing Test?

On the other hand, forced to take sides, I would eagerly paint my face and become as alarmistic as needed, takin' my place in the Battle of the Wall. I am guaranteed to succeed because I didn't ask a rise* nor raise** for the next season. Fortunately, climate science is no Game of Thrones, though it looks that way in fora, with so many nicks, and avatars, and posts written with cutouts taken from googled abstracts and then glued like ransom notes.

* to British producers
** to the American ones
 
6 degrees C not unreasonable

Probabilistic Forecast for 21st Century Climate Based on Uncertainties in Emissions (without Policy) and Climate Parameters
http://globalchange.mit.edu/files/document/MITJPSPGC_Rpt169.pdf


Lessons from Earth's Past
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6014/158.summary
(pay-walled -
picture.php
...Although these processes operate on slower time scales than may be of immediate interest to societies, these processes are still important to longer-term adaptation issues. Recent modeling studies on the lifetime of
atmospheric CO2 indicate that if the CO2 concentration reaches ~1000 ppmv, then the time for natural processes to return it to around 300 ppmv is many tens of thousands of years ( 16, 17). Thus, if atmospheric CO2 reaches 1000 ppmv, then human civilization will face another world, one that the human species has never experienced in its history (~2 million years). Also, given this long lifetime for elevated CO2, slower feedback processes will have time to enter into Earth’s future climate change. This magnitude and rate of climate
change will be even more challenging for the biosphere to adapt to, including
the human species...
)

"Four degrees and beyond: the potential for a global temperature increase of four degrees and its implications"
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/369/1934.toc
(Many of these studies are suggesting 4C by mid century (2060))


A reasonable explanation why many in the scientific community have not much studied or contemplated much less spoken out about the dangers and problems associated with the higher emissions scenarios is because they never thought humanity would be so self-destructive as to ignore their warnings for so long.
 
I strongly disagree that the numbers in the IPCC report are remotely credible, though. Obviously I'll never persuade the true believers that populate this thread, but just making the statement for the record ;)

That’s a statement more fit for the CT forum since it effectively puts you at odds with the entire climate science community and nearly all the published literature on the topic.
 
Of course I am the exclusive owner of the whole, only and holly truth, if you asked that, but my immense humility prevents me from bragging about it more than twice a century. Did I pass the Turing Test?

On the other hand, forced to take sides, I would eagerly paint my face and become as alarmistic as needed, takin' my place in the Battle of the Wall. I am guaranteed to succeed because I didn't ask a rise* nor raise** for the next season. Fortunately, climate science is no Game of Thrones, though it looks that way in fora, with so many nicks, and avatars, and posts written with cutouts taken from googled abstracts and then glued like ransom notes.

* to British producers
** to the American ones

LOL, my point was that there are few who consider their positions radical or extremist, regardless of how those positions may seem to those who hold different reasoned and considered positions reflective of different values and perspectives.

As you allude to, there is a difference between the debate of how much, how fast, between people who understand that even a little over a long time can lead to a lot of adaptation problems and economic difficulties in addressing, and those who think the current election cycle is an extremely long time and all that they are really prepared to consider.

I hope that my "ransom note" postings are not as bothersome as your comments suggest. I try to limit paper quotes to pay-walled papers that others may not have access to or screenshots that encapsulate hundreds of words of explanation.
 
My apologies, I was wrapping up my time online and looked at the graphs in a rather cursory manner. The graph I looked at (12.3a) the vertical axis is in Watts/M2 not degrees C, huge difference, my mistake. Dismay at the IPCC remains, but is mostly focused on the conundrum about why they are increasing the level of conservatism of their estimations, particularly when the science has been steadily demonstrating the errors of that practice throughout AR1-4. Findings that increasingly support higher CO2 emissions than earlier studies estimated, over shorter time frames, and generating stronger environmental responses from such factors. I hope the IPCC reviewers are more correct this time than they have been in the past, though reducing estimates doesn't seem to be the right direction to go when you have consistently been under-estimating effects more and more with each report released thus far.

To the extent of my knowledge, IPCC panels are a little bit conservative as they should be. And there's a giant misconception about the number and validity of those papers supporting "it's worse than we thought!". If I have to describe at a glance the difference between my involvement in these matters at forums.randi.org (and other fora) during 5 years as opposed to my involvement with these matters in real life for a longer time, I would say this:

a) Internet debate is clearly denialist-driven and pretty much unscientific.
b) Internet debate has little connexion with general education of the big public. It's like here; they can't teach what a strawman is because themselves ignore what it is, that's why so many strawmen are stuffed here and pass undetected while the same posters accuse others of strawmanization, for instance, to censor their ironic remarks.
c) Internet debate, as part of its unscientificity -four-dollar word if any-, is pretty much innumerate, asystemic and barely logical.
d) Internet debate is uncooperative, and elements of life that are completely alien to science take control, like proof within the adversarial system of justice, propaganda, political advocacy, etc.

Within this depiction falls a sad fact involving scientific papers, popular science and all that lies in between. The fact that a paper from 2009 finds some scenario laid out in 1995 to be wrong or improvable by using models, leftovers (like the microns in that sad sea ice debate) and by doing so it tells everything is worse than expected should be a warning about the quality of such papers. Late papers are most probable to fall into the opportunistic-to-make-a-name-for-ourselves category and not in the breakthrough one. On the contrary, and what a surprise in that, there are much fewer late papers saying that everything is about the same, with more accent in this and less accent in that, and even fewer papers saying it's better than thought. And nobody is citing them here (or there), why? because they don't satisfy the wished level of confirmation or alarm.

There's no worse and abject cherrypicking than googling and selecting a trio of abstracts from peer reviewed papers with similar conclusions. The right thing to do is selecting three because of their inherent quality, from a group of 10 or more, including the willful search for opposite conclusions.

Denialists had the public perceiving that AGW yes and no has a 60% - 40% share in the scientific production, so the question is still unsettled. In reality it's 97% vs 3%, the question is settled, but warmists have the public perceiving that those 3% are bad papers and those 97% are mostly good, what is as shameful as what denialists do, specially when they cherrypick from that 97% not for quality but for conclusion.

That's why IPCC ARs look so complicated yet a little bit hesitant. Science is there.
 
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