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First-grader suspended for turning in toy gun at school

GodMark2 said:
TimCallahan said:
Whether the gun looked real or didn't, the school authorities were actin like dicks they were required to by the parents that forced the zero-tolerance policy on the school.
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Fixed a typo.
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If the school authorities have the discretion to recommend discipline on a case by case basis then they were dicks in this case.

Not "acting like".
 
Originally Posted by TimCallahan
Whether the gun looked real or didn't, the school authorities were actin like dicks they were required to by the parents that forced the zero-tolerance policy on the school.

GodMark2 said:
Fixed a typo.
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Can you give us some evidence supporting your assertion that the parents were the ones forcing the institution of a zero tolerance policy? I'm open to that possibility, but I'd like some evidence.
 
I think you would have to look at each school district's history to see how and why ZTPs were put in place. I think it's fair to say, however, in general, zero tolerance polices have been supported by parents and were, I think, in large part driven by the concerns of at least some parents about school safety. This varies from district to district and, admittedly, some parents have begun to question it.

This is from a page put up fourteen years ago by a school parent group:

In recent years, school districts across the country have been developing stricter disciplinary guidelines around issues that are related to student and school safety or substance abuse. These stricter measures are designed to comply with the 1994 Gun-Free Schools Act (GFSA) that required all states to pass legislation to enforce federal gun-free-school laws and expel students who bring a firearm onto school property. Spring 2000, National Parent Information Network Link
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This is from a University of Michigan page about school violence:
In the new zero-tolerance policy on weapons, nail clippers have been deemed too dangerous, or rather, too weapon-like to be allowed in school (Cloud, 2001). Instead of mentoring programs and violence prevention tactics being implemented in our schools, parents crave the quick-fix. Parents – as shown in polls – are in favor of harsh zero-tolerance policies (Cloud, 2001). Link
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I also think it's fair to suspect -- though I'm not sure how you'd prove this -- if MOST parents OPPOSED ZTPs than many schools would remove them. That doesn't seem to be happening though.

Twenty-five years ago our school district became one of the first if not the first school district in New York to implement zero tolerance policies. My kids are out of school now -- and the situation seems much better -- but back then we had some serious gang activity and youth violence that was spilling over into the high schools in my urban area. The belief was that the schools should be a safe haven, where kids who wanted to attend classes and study could do so without having to navigate through an intimidating atmosphere where the threat of violence was a constant presence.

I wouldn't call myself a supporter of ZTP on school violence but I'm not against it.
 
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Dr. Keith said:
I agree, subject to the following.



And here is where it goes a bit off the rails.

1. The school can not correct your assumption because it must protect the student's privacy; and

2. The administrators may not have set the zero tolerance policies, often they start at the elected school board level.

If you want to limit this BS you have to do so at the local level, with school board elections.
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Welp I am glad I grew in a country with national school decision, where the local level can bugger off in private school if they are not content with secular rules, and toy confiscated no matter which (gun, doll, everything). No discussion needed, the rules were fair, clear and did not leave interpretation or political levee to the locals.
 
There is also a difference between expulsion and suspension. Sounds like the only discretion here is whether or not the child is allowed to return to the school ever.

jalok
 
Why toy guns are also banned under the 'no guns on school grounds' edict begs the question: Why do students need to bring a toy gun to school in the first place?

There's other issues as well. As was pointed out, some toy guns look very real. Even police officers have occasionally mistaken them for the real thing. If staff see a student with what is purported to be a toy gun are they expected to examine the gun to ensure it really is a toy gun? If it is a toy gun should students be allowed to display it, say by wearing it holstered, or does the toy gun need to be concealed? Carried in a book bag or backpack? Or if in a holster covered by clothing?

I would imagine the conversation going like this:

Administrator: I don't want some kid getting shot and the staff saying, "I was told it was a toy gun. I thought it was, I thought it was a toy." Why don't we just make the ban for "guns" period. Real, toy, whatever.
Staff: Can I make a suggestion? Let's not call them toy guns. Let's call them "replicas."
Administrator: Okay, fine. We ready to vote on this?
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;)
 
newyorkguy said:
Why toy guns are also banned under the 'no guns on school grounds' edict begs the question: Why do students need to bring a toy gun to school in the first place?

There's other issues as well. As was pointed out, some toy guns look very real. Even police officers have occasionally mistaken them for the real thing. If staff see a student with what is purported to be a toy gun are they expected to examine the gun to ensure it really is a toy gun? If it is a toy gun should students be allowed to display it, say by wearing it holstered, or does the toy gun need to be concealed? Carried in a book bag or backpack? Or if in a holster covered by clothing?

I would imagine the conversation going like this:



;)
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But this is why zero-tolerance policy is idiotic:

A high school student that brings in a realistic looking "replica" to school in order to intimidate or scare others should be punished harshly. It shouldn't be tolerated.

But the child in question is about 6 years old. Punishing him because his parent accidentally left a toy in his bag, of which he decided to try and turn in is downright idiotic. What exactly are you not tolerating by punishing him? Parents making an innocent mistake, and a child that tries to do right. Yeah lets not tolerate that :covereyes
 
lobosrul said:
But this is why zero-tolerance policy is idiotic...
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The school has a policy of zero tolerance for any student who brings a real or toy gun into the school building. For many parents, like me, this is a very serious issue. Was this case extreme, the outer limits of ZTP? Yes I agree it was. But the policy is clear. The student violated it.

So how should they change the policy? Allow toy guns to be brought into the school? Allow them so long as the student then turns them in claiming they brought it in accidentally?

I'll tell you one thing this case does. It got the message out very clearly to kids in that school system. NO GUNS IN THE BUILDING. Not even toy guns. Not even by accident. No type of gun on school grounds period end-of-sentence. Yes it's very severe and is exactly why these policies were implemented in the first place.

No guns. No time. No exceptions. For me that's not idiotic.
 
newyorkguy said:
The school has a policy of zero tolerance for any student who brings a real or toy gun into the school building. For many parents, like me, this is a very serious issue. Was this case extreme, the outer limits of ZTP? Yes I agree it was. But the policy is clear. The student violated it.

So how should they change the policy? Allow toy guns to be brought into the school? Allow them so long as the student then turns them in claiming they brought it in accidentally?

I'll tell you one thing this case does. It got the message out very clearly to kids in that school system. NO GUNS IN THE BUILDING. Not even toy guns. Not even by accident. No type of gun on school grounds period end-of-sentence. Yes it's very severe and is exactly why these policies were implemented in the first place.

No guns. No time. No exceptions. For me that's not idiotic.
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They should take some factors into account when deciding on the punishment for the child, like his age, whether or not he turned it in, if it was a replica or obviously a toy and if it was indeed his fault in this first place. Zero tolerance is laziness on administrators parts. They don't want to have to think about if punishment fits the crime, they just want to look it up in a table and be done with it. If the exact same thing happened, but the gun was real. Then the parent who left the gun his backpack should be punished. Not the child, he did nothing wrong.

And to be fair, maybe I'm a bit biased. I was on the wrong side of ZTP at the age of 14. I got to sit in a box (in school suspension*) for 3 days from 8 to 4 for doing something, very very minor. I pulled 2 or 3 leaves off a bush on school property (destruction of property).

*This being Texas in the 90's I had the option of letting a man hit me with a paddle on the butt 3 times, whom I have a sneaking suspicion enjoyed his work too much.
 
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For most issues -- like pulling leaves off a bush -- I agree a ZTP policy is probably too extreme. (Did your school have a ZTP for destroying school property? You didn't say.) The administrators should have some discretion. For weapons, violence or drugs I'm ready to live with ZTP.

It depends on the district, too. I can tell you, twenty years ago when my school district implemented a ZTP for school violence, there were a lot of issues.

One teacher told us privately that in some cases ZTP would allow them to take action without being personally at risk. That some of the kids were dangerous. They had already been arrested by police, They had criminal records. Some of them came from dysfunctional families. It wasn't unusual for teachers to be threatened by family members after starting a discipline procedure for a student.

Another issue some of the parents brought out was, if a student brings a gun to school there's something wrong. Even a toy gun. Suspend them and bring the parents in. Find out what's going on. Some of the parents also felt some teachers were too liberal. That they would see too many reasons to excuse an incident. Or possibly would be afraid to take action for fear of reprisals. (That led to the conversation some of us had with the teacher that led to the teacher telling us that teachers did have solid grounds to be wary. Teachers were getting assaulted.)
 
newyorkguy said:
The school has a policy of zero tolerance for any student who brings a real or toy gun into the school building. For many parents, like me, this is a very serious issue. Was this case extreme, the outer limits of ZTP? Yes I agree it was. But the policy is clear. The student violated it.

So how should they change the policy? Allow toy guns to be brought into the school? Allow them so long as the student then turns them in claiming they brought it in accidentally?

I'll tell you one thing this case does. It got the message out very clearly to kids in that school system. NO GUNS IN THE BUILDING. Not even toy guns. Not even by accident. No type of gun on school grounds period end-of-sentence. Yes it's very severe and is exactly why these policies were implemented in the first place.

No guns. No time. No exceptions. For me that's not idiotic.
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Answer this one question: A kid gets to school and looks in his backpack, sees a toy gun in the bottom, and thinks "Crap, I forgot I left that in there." What should he then do? I think we certainly know what this kid will do if it happens to him again (or any of the other students in that school for that matter). Obviously the ZTP does not address such a situation. Clearly, turning anything in is the wrong thing to do.
 
Psi Baba said:
...Clearly, turning anything in is the wrong thing to do.
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If you want to believe the lesson to be learned here is, turning anything in is wrong, go ahead. I don't agree with that.

What should he have done when he discovered the toy gun in his backpack? Sure he should've known, 'If I turn this in I'm probably going to get suspended.' Maybe he should've kept the gun out of sight. I've said all along, in this case it was an overreaction.

However I also see a common reaction to this incident that we see so often on Internet message boards. A policy occasionally produces a less than perfect result and people get all dramatic and bash the school and call them idiots and say, "How can we permit this kind of thing to happen, oh someone please tell me!!" :dqueen

The kid got a two-day vacation. He won't do it again. Case closed. ;)
 
newyorkguy said:
For most issues -- like pulling leaves off a bush -- I agree a ZTP policy is probably too extreme. (Did your school have a ZTP for destroying school property? You didn't say.) The administrators should have some discretion. For weapons, violence or drugs I'm ready to live with ZTP.

It depends on the district, too. I can tell you, twenty years ago when my school district implemented a ZTP for school violence, there were a lot of issues.
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Yes. It also had a vice principal in charge if discipline. That was, I think, his only job. The school did have a serious gangs problem. If a high school student brings an actual gun to school, no I have no problem with them being expelled and charged with a crime. If a 6 year old shows up with a gun in his backpack. Its either 1) his parents fault, and they should be punished, not him. Or 2) he found it somewhere and picked it up. In which case he still shouldn't be punished, especially if at the earliest opportunity he shows it to a teacher. Children are punished to show them their actions were wrong. What did this kid do that was wrong exactly? Talk about confusing for a 6 year old: your parents make a mistake, you try and do whats right, and then you are punished.

This is like having the same punishment for a student that bring s heroin into school, as one who brings in Midol (theres a thread about that on JREF).

newyorkguy said:
One teacher told us privately that in some cases ZTP would allow them to take action without being personally at risk. That some of the kids were dangerous. They had already been arrested by police, They had criminal records. Some of them came from dysfunctional families. It wasn't unusual for teachers to be threatened by family members after starting a discipline procedure for a student.

Another issue some of the parents brought out was, if a student brings a gun to school there's something wrong. Even a toy gun. Suspend them and bring the parents in. Find out what's going on. Some of the parents also felt some teachers were too liberal. That they would see too many reasons to excuse an incident. Or possibly would be afraid to take action for fear of reprisals. (That led to the conversation some of us had with the teacher that led to the teacher telling us that teachers did have solid grounds to be wary. Teachers were getting assaulted.)
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The teacher, in this case, didn't do anything wrong IMO. I'm sure it was policy for her to report any toy gun to the principals office. I don't take any issue with the part of ZTP (if it is a part?), that requires the teacher to report something to the administration.
 
lobosrul said:
...What did this kid do that was wrong exactly?...
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He brought a toy gun into school. We can go around and around on this but it's not going to change. He brought a toy gun into the school building and he was suspended.
 
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