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First-grader suspended for turning in toy gun at school

newyorkguy said:
It appears to me he was punished for bringing a gun to school. If he told the teachers he found the gun in the hallway and decided to turn it in and got suspended, then he'd be getting punished solely for turning in a gun. But that's not what happened, right?



He was punished for bringing a gun to school. Claiming it was an accident and turning it in... Maybe they didn't believe him. Maybe they thought he decided to turn it in because one of the other kids saw it and was threatening to tell. We don't know that.

I get it, people are arguing the school went overboard. If the school had said, "Okay you made a mistake you owned up to, we'll overlook it this time," I'd be fine with that too.

If he was my son I would tell him, "This doesn't prove adults are crazy, this proves the school does not want guns, even toy guns, being brought into the school. They're not going to tolerate it." I would explain to him that some little boys like him have been hurt by kids that brought guns to school. That the school has decided they will punish anyone who brings a real gun or a toy gun into the school building.
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First of all, he was punished for bringing a toy to school. If he had really brought a gun to school, I'd be all for a zero tolerance punishment whether he turned himself in or not.

Secondly, the school needn't have overlooked the incident. There's a lot of room to take corrective action between doing nothing and a suspension. Zero tolerance just means that next time, he might as well not say anything since the result will be the same whether he's busted or he tries to do the right thing.

I'm a parent too and if that happened at school I'd be raising hell, whether or not it was my kid.
 
newyorkguy said:
He was punished for bringing a gun to school. Claiming it was an accident and turning it in... Maybe they didn't believe him.
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"I'm going to intentionally bring this toy gun to school, then turn it in to my teacher and say that it was an accident that I had it with me." Does that seem like something a child is likely to do? I know they're not entirely rational beings at that point, but that seems entirely too contrived, even for a kid.

It also sends another bad message to the child: "We don't believe anything you say."

Maybe they thought he decided to turn it in because one of the other kids saw it and was threatening to tell. We don't know that.
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It sounds like they wouldn't know that, either. Why would they make the assumption, then?

If he was my son I would tell him, "This doesn't prove adults are crazy, this proves the school does not want guns, even toy guns, being brought into the school. They're not going to tolerate it."
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Why would you waste your time and insult your child's intelligence like that? The kid obviously already understands it on some level, which is why he turned the damn thing in. He didn't pull it out of his backpack, laugh at the pleasant discovery of his mistake, and then proceed to pretend-shoot his fellow students.
 
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IDB87 said:
How many backpacks does a first grader need? Why is he storing weapons in one of them? Was that his bug-out bag?
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Not a parent, are you? In a school year of daily use a backpack gets pretty thrashed but can still be used as an overnight bag to go spend the night with a friend, and is often left pre-packed with Nerf guns or extra game controllers. So kinda like a training version of a bug out bag if you do it right. Modern backpacks have an absurd number of pockets that are easily overlooked in a hurry.
 
There was a similar story were two or three students found a gun, touched it to see if it was real and reported their find to their teachers. They were expelled for touching the gun.

No good deed goes unpunished especially when dealing with idiots in our school systems.
 
It is ridiculous for a school to worry about toy guns. I could see some issues occurring if the toy gun looks like a real gun, but these days most toy guns don't.
 
ravdin said:
First of all, he was punished for bringing a toy to school...
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He was suspended for bringing a toy gun to school. You can't separate that out. You can't claim he was suspended for turning in a gun. For bringing a toy to school. It was for bringing a toy gun to school. If the school has a zero tolerance policy on bringing guns to school than the administrators have no discretion. They have to take action.

Guns in school buildings have proven to be very dangerous. Parents worry about them. So school systems have developed ZTP to combat it. Did the school overreact? Probably. But I'm okay with that. No one can deny that these policies aren't an outgrowth of violence in schools. So if they want to institute a ZTP regarding guns, real or toys, I won't always agree with how they enforce it but I will be inclined to support it.
 
Are we having difficulty grasping the term "zero tolerance?" Surely, the word zero in there should be a tip-off. And it stems from the previous, unsatisfactory version - arbitrary tolerance. For whatever reason, people want a clear policy that removes the bias of capricious authority. So that's what you get - a clear policy, no exceptions, no arguments, no appeals.

Who would approve of such a draconian policy? Why the parents of all the other students, that's who. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Harsh? Of course it is. This is a feature, not a bug.
 
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newyorkguy said:
He was suspended for bringing a toy gun to school. You can't separate that out.
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But separating things out is exactly what you're doing. You're removing the "toy" from "toy gun" and suggesting that the school's policy against bringing actual weapons to school applies to this situation.
 
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
But that's exactly what you're doing. You're removing the "toy" from "toy gun" and suggesting that the school's policy against bringing actual weapons to school applies to this situation.
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Yeah, that doesn't work. You are saying the modifier is an escape clause, making the item symbolic instead of actual. Like if a kid burned the principal in effigy or talked about raping their teacher - it's just speech after all, they didn't actually harm the principal or rape anyone.

It's a compound noun. The gun part is relevant and forbidden. The toy part isn't, but if it were a toy car, we wouldn't be having this conversation. How about a metal gun? Metals aren't forbidden.
 
marplots said:
You are saying the modifier is an escape clause, making the item symbolic instead of actual.
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Well, it is; toy guns are not actual guns.

Like if a kid burned the principal in effigy or talked about raping their teacher - it's just speech after all, they didn't actually harm the principal or rape anyone.
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These would likely be classified under threatening speech and be dealt with appropriately.

It's a compound noun. The gun part is relevant and forbidden. The toy part isn't, but if it were a toy car, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Because school policy allows actual cars to be brought into the school, is that it?

Your argument is nonsense, but it turns out the direction I was going doesn't work too well, either. I was basing my recent direction on the assumption that the definition of "weapon" in the school's policy didn't include toys or replicas.

That's apparently not the case.

The student handbook that jasonpatterson linked to earlier has this to say on page 11:

WEAPONS ABUSE POLICY
ACT 26 OF 1995
THE SAFE SCHOOL ACT

( ADOPTED JANUARY 1996
to be added to existing Weapons
Policy 218 or 218.1 )​

The New Kensington-Arnold School District shall expel, for a period of not less than a year, any student who brings a weapon onto any school property, any school sponsored activity or any public conveyance providing transportation to a school sponsored activity. The Superintendent may recommend discipline short of expulsion on a case-by-case basis. In the case of an exceptional student, the Superintendent shall take all necessary steps to comply with the Individuals With Disabilities Education Act.

The Superintendent shall report the discovery of any weapon prohibited by this policy to local law enforcement officials and shall report all incidences relating to expulsions for possession of a weapon on school grounds to the Department of Education. Acts of violence or possession of a weapon by any person on school property in violation of this policy shall be reported to the Office for State Schools on the designated form twice per year, as required. The Superintendent or a designee shall take the necessary actions to develop a memorandum of understanding with local law enforcement officials that sets forth procedures to by followed when an incident occurs involving an act of violence or possession of a weapon by any person on school property.
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The "existing Weapons Policy 218 or 218.1" referred to can be found in this PDF where "weapon" is defined on page 87 (of the PDF):

Weapon - the term shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchaku, firearm, shotgun, rifle, replica of a weapon, and/or any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
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I suppose a toy would qualify as a replica. The suspension is not against school policy. However, the Superintendent is given leeway to "recommend discipline short of expulsion on a case-by-case basis." This is where the over-reaction occurred.
 
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newyorkguy said:
He was suspended for bringing a toy gun to school. You can't separate that out. You can't claim he was suspended for turning in a gun. For bringing a toy to school. It was for bringing a toy gun to school...
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
But separating things out is exactly what you're doing. You're removing the "toy" from "toy gun" and suggesting that the school's policy against bringing actual weapons to school applies to this situation.
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I didn't leave the word toy out. I have said at length -- based on what actually occurred -- the school obviously has a policy against bringing guns to school whether they are real or toys. I'm sure the policy was crafted that way to be very severe. NO GUNS. Not even toy ones. Period. For many parents the whole issue is very troubling. What issue is it though? A -Overzealous school policies or B-Guns in schools. It's B.
 
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
<snip>
The "existing Weapons Policy 218 or 218.1" referred to can be found in this PDF where "weapon" is defined on page 87 (of the PDF):

Weapon - the term shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchaku, firearm, shotgun, rifle, replica of a weapon, and/or any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
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<snip>
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Damn.

That doesn't leave much out, does it?
 
Orphia Nay said:
Just a note to add: The boy was suspended for a total of 2 days.

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/06/06/pennsylvania-boy-7-suspended-for-toy-gun/
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No doubt two stress-filled days of video games and eating all manner of snack items. I fear this child has been permanently damaged and doomed to a life of seeking slack. He should move to Colorado, learn to ride a skateboard, and take up dope smoking.

It's a shame that this incident has tainted his permanent record.
 
Your 3.8 GPA is spectacular, we see you were captain of the Baseball team two years in a row, and your SAT's are so off the charts that the government would like to study your brain. You meet all of our other qualifications; but unfortunately this first-grade toy gun suspension here in your permanent record renders you ineligible for admission. We here at Brown University frankly do not like your kind and we also blame your parents.

Regretfully,

Office of Rejections for Things on Applicants' Permanent Records
Brown University
 
marplots said:
No doubt two stress-filled days of video games and eating all manner of snack items. I fear this child has been permanently damaged and doomed to a life of seeking slack. He should move to Colorado, learn to ride a skateboard, and take up dope smoking.

It's a shame that this incident has tainted his permanent record.
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:D

Checkmite said:
Your 3.8 GPA is spectacular, we see you were captain of the Baseball team two years in a row, and your SAT's are so off the charts that the government would like to study your brain. You meet all of our other qualifications; but unfortunately this first-grade toy gun suspension here in your permanent record renders you ineligible for admission. We here at Brown University frankly do not like your kind and we also blame your parents.

Regretfully,

Office of Rejections for Things on Applicants' Permanent Records
Brown University
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:D
 
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