Sally Morgan, A lesson to be learned

[trebor]

There is a more direct account from Myles Power in his podcast episode.
On youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYDKqBX6XJg

With added intro after the last was DMCA'd by Sally..

 

[arthwollipot]

Some people are capable of the most extraordinary mental gymnastics in order to maintain a belief in which they are emotionally invested. We see examples here all the time. I'm sure a true believer could rationalise this away somehow.

Not just emotionally invested. She makes a fortune doing this. The sunk cost is massive.

 

[pakeha]

Some people are capable of the most extraordinary mental gymnastics in order to maintain a belief in which they are emotionally invested. We see examples here all the time. I'm sure a true believer could rationalise this away somehow.

I'm reminded of Derek Ogilvie^WP

In 2008, Ogilvie applied to be a candidate on the 'Five' programme, Extraordinary People: The Million Dollar Mind Reader. In the show, sceptic James Randi challenged Ogilvie to prove he has psychic abilities. Ogilvie failed the test.[1] Although Randi thinks Ogilvie really believes himself he has special powers, he does not think those powers are actually present.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'd agree that the impression I've got of Ogilive is that he genuinely believes he has powers. He was gobsmacked and crestfallen when he didn't pass the JREF MDC and had a lot of self-doubt until some pseudo scientist fed him a line about his brainwaves being different from the norm.

Morgan, on the other hand, has been caught out cheating. She denies it, but her denials don't account for all the facts. She's refused to be tested, and indeed had her lawyers threaten to sue for libel those who asked her to take a test. She's also been filmed by Derren Brown going on about how she could feel the "spirit vortex" emanating from a statue of a dog that had a local reputation for being lucky, without realising that the statue was perfectly ordinary and Brown himself had started the rumour that it was lucky less than a week previously.

Derek Ogilive acts (or acted, I've not seen much of him recently) like someone who believes he has a gift. Sally Morgan acts like a fraud.

I do not believe that Sally Morgan believes she has powers.

 

[Reno]

It doesn't matter a hill o' beans whether we believe Morgan has, or believes she has powers. The only thing that will impact her is if her followers start to believe she has no powers. Those people are the targets we should be aiming at with proper facts and information about Morgans antics. But even if someone managed to do a Randi style Popoff exposure on Morgan, none of these beleivers would even see or read or hear of the story unless it was broadcast on a TV programme such as Good Morning, or the Lorraine Kelly show. Making a factual, indepth documentary on Morgan would have little impact on her cash flow. Articles in newspapers that can be picked apart by her lawyers can only serve to strengthen her followers belief in her abilites as they are seen as a vindication.

I'll bet she has already scripted a whole diatribe to add to her live shows and in this, will claim that a legal court ruled that her powers are real. Makes me wonder if she actually struck some kind of a deal with the Daily Mail before all of this happened as a way of increasing her publicity and at the same time making her pretty bullet-proof against any other claims that she is a fake.

 

[Porterboy]

There is a more direct account from Myles Power in his podcast episode.
On youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYDKqBX6XJg

With added intro after the last was DMCA'd by Sally..

Sorry Myles and James were DMCA'ed. Sally Morgan has every legal right to fight back against genuine libel, but I think it's a very cheap shot for her to try to suppress legitimate criticism of her through attacking free speech.

 

[TheFamousCash]

Anyone claiming to be psychic is in one, or both, of only two states.

1) A CON ARTIST.
2) MENTALLY UNWELL.

Unfortunately, anyone believing that a third party receives messages from dead people must also be mentally unwell.

 

[TheFamousCash]

Whilst anyone should be permitted to believe anything they want, no matter how stupid, we should still TRY to educate them.

If the thieves who legally steal money from vulnerable people with government turning a blind eye, were imprisoned any their stolen profits returned to their victims, it would be a start.

 

[TheFamousCash]

If someone was "mistaken" in thinking they receive messages from dead people they obviously fall into state two. MENTALLY UNWELL.

Whilst people may beieve what they want, no matter how stupid, those of us with a brain should surely TRY to educate them.

 

[Reno]

It doesn't matter a hill o' beans whether we believe Morgan has, or believes she has powers. The only thing that will impact her is if her followers start to believe she has no powers. Those people are the targets we should be aiming at with proper facts and information about Morgans antics. But even if someone managed to do a Randi style Popoff exposure on Morgan, none of these beleivers would even see or read or hear of the story unless it was broadcast on a TV programme such as Good Morning, or the Lorraine Kelly show. Making a factual, indepth documentary on Morgan would have little impact on her cash flow. Articles in newspapers that can be picked apart by her lawyers can only serve to strengthen her followers belief in her abilites as they are seen as a vindication.

I'll bet she has already scripted a whole diatribe to add to her live shows and in this, will claim that a legal court ruled that her powers are real. Makes me wonder if she actually struck some kind of a deal with the Daily Mail before all of this happened as a way of increasing her publicity and at the same time making her pretty bullet-proof against any other claims that she is a fake.

I must have been half-asleep when I typed this. I sound like a dimwit. Please do not read it. I am not normally as stupid as I sound here.

 

[Pixel42]

If someone was "mistaken" in thinking they receive messages from dead people they obviously fall into state two. MENTALLY UNWELL.

Whilst people may beieve what they want, no matter how stupid, those of us with a brain should surely TRY to educate them.

You don't need to be mentally unwell or stupid to be taken in by cold reading. You just need to be unaware of your own cognitive biases, and of how unreliable your perceptions and memory can be. Those are the things that we should be educating people about: they can then work out for themselves what people like Sally Morgan are doing.

 

[Dissolution]

I'm sure I read something written by an "ex-psychic" where they explained that they were actually under the impression that their powers worked, as they'd been bought up to think that way.
Cold reading was taught to them as something completely different, a way of harnessing their abilities or tuning into the spirits.
They were as duped as their marks.

 

[George]

I must have been half-asleep when I typed this. I sound like a dimwit. Please do not read it. I am not normally as stupid as I sound here.

What's wrong with it? What you describe all seems pretty plausible to me.

 

[arthwollipot]

If someone was "mistaken" in thinking they receive messages from dead people they obviously fall into state two. MENTALLY UNWELL.

Whilst people may beieve what they want, no matter how stupid, those of us with a brain should surely TRY to educate them.

Mental illness is not cured by education. If you genuinely believe that they are mentally ill, then it is treatment, not education, that you should be advocating.

Being honestly mistaken is not a mental illness.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's possible that Sally Morgan is sincere and is inadvertently fooling herself as much as her audiences. Unlikely, but possible.

And here is where I come to a deep rift with a lot of people on both sides of this battle.

To be blunt, I don't care if Sally Morgan or any if her ilk honestly believe they somehow magically possess special mental powers that you and I do not or if they are dirty underhanded hucksters.

They are questions that have been answered so thoroughly as to make holding the wrong opinion on them a moral failing as well as an intellectual one. There reaches a point when a person holds an opinion that is so far removed from reality that what they are doing if they hold it is essentially lying to themselves. And as Penn Jillette said when speaking of psychics lying to yourself to not make lying to others okay and doesn't make the psychic a better person.

I know this is not the most popular opinion to hold but if we're talking a mentally sound person that lives in an educated society they are things you just shouldn't be wrong about. And being wrong about them becomes a problem beyond just being wrong.

I don't know if Sally Morgan honestly thinks she is a psychic or not. I'm not psychic I can't look into the woman's brain and know what opinion she holds. But the net result of her actions are the same so the net result of how much I condemn her will not change either. I will not split hairs over motivation and intention when real objective harm is being done to real people.

 

[abaddon]

I must have been half-asleep when I typed this. I sound like a dimwit. Please do not read it. I am not normally as stupid as I sound here.

Not sure what you mean. I often get the brain-finger disconnect if I am up too late, but there seems nothing incogent in what you wrote.

 

[Pixel42]

And here is where I come to a deep rift with a lot of people on both sides of this battle.

To be blunt, I don't care if Sally Morgan or any if her ilk honestly believe they somehow magically possess special mental powers that you and I do not or if they are dirty underhanded hucksters.

They are questions that have been answered so thoroughly as to make holding the wrong opinion on them a moral failing as well as an intellectual one. There reaches a point when a person holds an opinion that is so far removed from reality that what they are doing if they hold it is essentially lying to themselves. And as Penn Jillette said when speaking of psychics lying to yourself to not make lying to others okay and doesn't make the psychic a better person.

I know this is not the most popular opinion to hold but if we're talking a mentally sound person that lives in an educated society they are things you just shouldn't be wrong about. And being wrong about them becomes a problem beyond just being wrong.

I don't know if Sally Morgan honestly thinks she is a psychic or not. I'm not psychic I can't look into the woman's brain and know what opinion she holds. But the net result of her actions are the same so the net result of how much I condemn her will not change either. I will not split hairs over motivation and intention when real objective harm is being done to real people.

I'm inclined to agree. Ignorance may be (at least temporarily) excusable, but willful ignorance is not. Someone who tries dowsing can be forgiven for being impressed by the ideomotor effect, but if they can read and have access to the internet their ignorance is excusable only for the length of time it takes them to look up dowsing on Wikipedia. Likewise Sally Morgan, even if she was originally genuinely mistaken, has had ample opportunity to educate herself. If she has refused to do so she is as culpable as if she was a conscious fraud.

 

[Reno]

What's wrong with it? What you describe all seems pretty plausible to me.

Not sure what you mean. I often get the brain-finger disconnect if I am up too late, but there seems nothing incogent in what you wrote.

Funny that...recently when people have been talking to me, I sometimes can't understand what they're saying clearly. I can hear them, I just can't follow the structure of their sentences. Maybe I need to see a brain doctor. Yep, I'll go for a check-up.

 

[Reno]

I'm sure I read something written by an "ex-psychic" where they explained that they were actually under the impression that their powers worked, as they'd been bought up to think that way.
Cold reading was taught to them as something completely different, a way of harnessing their abilities or tuning into the spirits.
They were as duped as their marks.

When Derek Ogilvie was tested by Randi on TV a while back, I got the impression that he genuinely believed he could 'baby-whisper'. He was fairly distraught when the conclusion of the proper tests showed that he had no powers (and I don't believe he was distraught because he didn't win a cool million), and he only perked up when he was told there was something not normal going on with his brainwaves. It seemed to me like he grasped onto that one bit of info so he could retain his belief in his powers. Seriously deluded rather than a complete huckster. I actually felt a little bit sorry for him for a minute or two.

 

[abaddon]

I'm inclined to agree. Ignorance may be (at least temporarily) excusable, but willful ignorance is not. Someone who tries dowsing can be forgiven for being impressed by the ideomotor effect, but if they can read and have access to the internet their ignorance is excusable only for the length of time it takes them to look up dowsing on Wikipedia. Likewise Sally Morgan, even if she was originally genuinely mistaken, has had ample opportunity to educate herself. If she has refused to do so she is as culpable as if she was a conscious fraud.

I am uncertain whether I can agree with that. Belief,like everything else, is a spectrum. It ranges from the gullible fool to the cynical shill. In my time, I have happened upon both ends of that spectrum and every shade between.

My father was into stage magic. Not my gig, I prefer close-up and impromptu stuff. However, once (among many) I assisted at a concert, he did his thing on stage, I managed the hardware and so forth. At the end, we were packing up and we were accosted by a heaving bosom of righteous indignation, fulminating against our display of satanic, ungodly powers, and on and on and on. This ...thing believed it was real.

To this day it is not uncommon for me to be accused of demon worship when I perform an illusion, but that was the most vehement, vitriol and spittle filled, bile-ridden catholic delusion it has ever been my privilege to witness all of it borne out of superstition.

And thus we come to dowsing. The easiest person to fool is yourself. Yes, back in the day, I did so briefly, until I said "hey, wait a minute" (kudos to pops) and checked it out for sure. He said not a word, but I think he took a certain pride that I figured it out myself without prompting. In later life, it became a competition. "Betcha can't figure out how I did that". It became somewhat of an amusing good natured arms race.

Many times, when pressed to demonstrate a "trick" he would catch my eye and give me the nod, and we would proceed to pull off illusions that would grow in the telling afterwards amazingly. This is one of the things which made me understand what eyewitness testimony really means. Often, people recounted not only what me an my father did, but even things which never happened.

The bottom line is there exist people who believe I violate the laws of physics. I am content to leave them in their pit of gullible belief. It gets me party invitations.