Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

By slow drip, involving repetition, patience, courtesy and tolerance I aim to firmly embed the idea here that, as with the lamp being IN THE ROOM, there is insufficient evidence that anything was ON THE CLASP at all. Recall, she destroyed the evidence (enough by itself). Recall further that, as well as that, she misrepresented it (suppressing information about the other peaks) until forced to disgorge more data. She still has not provided the EDFs. The item in question is itself open to serious objection as a piece of evidence for many well-rehearsed reasons. She is at best subject to 'understandable lapses of memory' and at worst a liar. Why would anybody take her word for it that 165B really came from the clasp itself?

I agree entirely anglo, unfortunately, we both know that isn't going anywhere in Italy.

Nothing about that bra clasp is credible. The suspicious way it was collected right at the time that they were losing their case against Raffaele. The "bizarre show" of them passing the bra clasp around to each other for the cameras on what should be just another piece of evidence that may and probably should have been nothing...(bus somehow turns out to be incriminating to the one person that their case against just imploded..(far too big a coincidence to me) And then mysteriously when CV are going to check Stef's work, we discover that the clasp was stored in the most bizarre and absurd process ever.

 

[Strozzi]

Go to hotels.com if that's what you are interested in but the issue isn't whether he paid the 20 Euros he told the PLE or whether he paid nothing. The issue is whether he was let in or had a way in (key broken lock).

RW posted a translation of Rudi's interrogation in which he claimed the 20 Euros. I doubt anybody believed the 50 Euros that was originally reported. But as I said, that isn't what's important.

There is no credible information that states he broke in as in a forced window or door.

Rudy probably couldn't find a rock handy. . He had to find some other way in.

 

[Strozzi]

Originally Posted by acbytesla
So do you think 20 Euros is much money Grinder? I don't. Sounds broke to me.


Maybe I can help. I travel a lot on business. Last time I stayed at a nursery it was 50 Euros (off-season, weekend rate). That was for a double room with four blankies. It was a 3 star nursery and the kitchen was rated 2 stars by Michelin. The only problem was they don't take American Express.

 

[Samson]

They are floundering on PMF because one member is deriding the others
for no timeline

PS Got a credible timeline?

I don't, but neither do you.
Yawn.

The reply is from Lauowolf who I think is the wife of site administrator Fly by Night, though I stand to be corrected.

Since some of them read here, maybe this will help.

As for the bra clasp, Raffaele could not have got to the bra before say 9 40 on the night of the crime, Nencini not disputing that he opened the Naruto cartoon at 9 26pm..

I found the new link Grinder was interested in to the Gastric emptying scan where the analysis ceases at two hours

http://mercymedicalcenter.chsli.org/gastric-empty-study

The doctor probably suspects that you are digesting your food very slowly. This usually happens because the muscles in the walls of your stomach are less active than they should be. This is a common problem for people with diabetes but it can affect anyone. Common symptoms are nausea, bloating, gas pains and vomiting.

After you eat the eggs, we will proceed to take images with our gamma camera. We will take one image every 15 minutes, for 2 hours. The entire test takes about 2.5 hours.
The pathologist Lalli declared Meredith to have been in good health and the autopsy which was unchallenged by the prosecution showed no gastric emptying.

Multiple witness testimony puts Meredith's last supper at 6 30, but one witness may have suggested later, but no time after 7 30 is cited in any court document, which are beloved by PGP.

Even with the unlikely 7 30, add two hours and we have 9 30pm

Either the Mercy hospital, With 700 physicians, a staff of 1,700, the latest technology, and one of Long Island's newest hospital facilities is wasting their time and their patients' money, or Meredith was dead before Raffaele could have got to the murder.
Given that Rudy has no alibi for this time, but rather claims to have been there at 9 20, it seems certain that he killed as a lone wolf, which is in agreement with what all but one experts agree is possible. A few courts chose to ignore these people

Conclusion:
However Raffaele's dna became associated with Meredith's bra clasp, it could not have been during the murder.

I hope my facts above are broadly correct.

 

[Strozzi]

I agree entirely anglo, unfortunately, we both know that isn't going anywhere in Italy.
Nothing about that bra clasp is credible. The suspicious way it was collected right at the time that they were losing their case against Raffaele. The "bizarre show" of them passing the bra clasp around to each other for the cameras on what should be just another piece of evidence that may and probably should have been nothing...(bus somehow turns out to be incriminating to the one person that their case against just imploded..(far too big a coincidence to me) And then mysteriously when CV are going to check Stef's work, we discover that the clasp was stored in the most bizarre and absurd process ever.

Highlighted statement is why case needs to be moved to US or British court. Need to force manufacturer of test instrument or test kit to answer questions on record (in court) regarding scientific techniques, contamination, reliability of data results, etc. Get manufacturer to state machine or test kit was used in ways not intended, results are scientifically fraudulent, unreliable if not downright corrupt.

Force instrument or test kit manufacturer to withdraw any license granted to police lab to use manufacturer's equipment or test kits.

Suit for massive damages will force educated Italians, US, UK audience to pay attention. Bring in media.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the bra clasp is just not right

I've been taking a close look at the lab data, and there are some really screwy things going on with the clasp. Examples:

That is very interesting. I didn't think that the clasp could look any fishier, but I was wrong. I was debating the destruction of the clasp at another site. The PG commenter said that the police apologized for destroying it. One, I don't recall ever hearing of this before. Two, and this supposed apology makes the loss of a major item of evidence better how exactly?

 

[acbytesla]

That is very interesting. I didn't think that the clasp could look any fishier, but I was wrong. I was debating the destruction of the clasp at another site. The PG commenter said that the police apologized for destroying it. One, I don't recall ever hearing of this before. Two, and this supposed apology makes the loss of a major item of evidence better how exactly?

You do have to think that apology would sound a bit hollow to Raffaele. " Geez Raffaele, we are sorry that you have to spend twenty plus years of your life behind bars because we don't know how to do our jobs or because we planted evidence on you because we just know you are guilty."

 

[Dan O.]

I really hate this theory Dan. Not that it didn't happen, but that anyone has to suggest what cannot really be known about how 4 males came to leave their DNA on that bra clasp. The idea from the ISC that the defense has to suggest a specific route for something that is clearly contamination drives me crazy and which I find stupid.

As I said, I don't make any suggestion that it can be known exactly what happened. The importance of the existence of a reasonable innocent scenareo is that it precludes the automatic implication of guilt. The guilters (and that includes the perugian authorities) cannot simply assume guilt because a DNA profile was found.

 

[Desert Fox]

That is very interesting. I didn't think that the clasp could look any fishier, but I was wrong. I was debating the destruction of the clasp at another site. The PG commenter said that the police apologized for destroying it. One, I don't recall ever hearing of this before. Two, and this supposed apology makes the loss of a major item of evidence better how exactly?

Even for those who argue that there is no deliberate deception against AK, the fact that she claims that her lab never had any contamination shows that she is dishonest.

 

[Diocletus]

You do have to think that apology would sound a bit hollow to Raffaele. " Geez Raffaele, we are sorry that you have to spend twenty plus years of your life behind bars because we don't know how to do our jobs or because we planted evidence on you because we just know you are guilty."

I think the apology went something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqpNQ9AJYgU&feature=kp

LOL.

 

[Planigale]

This from the Conti Vecchiotti Report is extraordinary!!


Related to the above, no security corridor was created for internal access with anticontamination criteria between the various environments; and indeed on these first two points, Dr. Stefanoni herself has stated, in the deposition of 10-4-2008 on pp.38-39: “…since we had our foot-covers [calzari], and had been entering many times obviously for the inspection activities in that room, and since the blood was abundant…the floor was certainly dirtier the second time, quote unquote, that is the blood had actually been spread around compared to the beginning of the inspection… this is the point, that is contamination is to be understood as something foreign [esogeno] brought in from the outside onto the crime scene… the only thing that could have happened in general in any inspection is that something could have been transferred which however is already there, if this something was moved, this can’t be ruled out but certainly nothing was brought in from the outside….Q:..So the most you can assume is a movement of DNA already present at the site?…A: Yes…” And again on pp. 83-84: “…Q: However the foot-covers aren’t being changed while you move around the house? A: It was possible to go back in…Q:…you went in and out of the rooms without changing the foot-covers…? A: Yes…“

I have wondered whether the Luminol positive footprints discovered on the second visit could have been the result of someone moving out of MK bedroom in overboots resulting in ill defined Luminol positive smudges elsewhere in the flat.

 

[anglolawyer]

I've been taking a close look at the lab data, and there are some really screwy things going on with the clasp. Examples:

The numbering for the clasp sub-Reps is transposed: 165b comes before 165a. This is not seen in any other sample.

The 165b egram comes from a different plate (414) than it should be in (410), and is the only sample identified for that plate. This suggests that it is the result of an unreported re-run after the main batch runs were completed.

More later.

Important but sadly not self-explanatory. An unhappy combo. Please explain this in greater detail when you're ready.

 

[acbytesla]

I think the apology went something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqpNQ9AJYgU&feature=kp

LOL.

Classic.

 

[Grinder]

Originally Posted by acbytesla
So do you think 20 Euros is much money Grinder? I don't. Sounds broke to me.


Maybe I can help. I travel a lot on business. Last time I stayed at a nursery it was 50 Euros (off-season, weekend rate). That was for a double room with four blankies. It was a 3 star nursery and the kitchen was rated 2 stars by Michelin. The only problem was they don't take American Express.

Here's what RW posted a while back. I can't find the transaltion right now but I trust RW.

Seriously though,
I'm takin' a break right now from reading the English translation of Rudy Guede's 2nd interrogation with PM Mignini, the one from March 2008.

Anyways, up to page 52, here's just a few of Guede's statements:
He says he met Amanda Knox on the opening of Le Chic, back on Sept. 4, 2007, but Amanda didn't even move in with Filomena, Laura and Meredith until Sept. 20th, much less start working at Le Chic yet.

He mentions that the guy who let him sleep at the nursery school let him stay there overnight for 20 Euros, (not the 50 Euros that I'd read of before) and the guy let him inside by opening the place with his keys.

Guede mentions that he was using the lawyers stolen phone, but with his own SIM, # 329.1819627.

In this 2nd interrogation, Rudy Guede corrects a statement from his 1st interrogation, the 1 we still don't have access to, and states that on Halloween night, he did not meet Meredith at the party he 1st went to with the Spanish gals, but that he met her at The Domus nightclub around 2 am. He also states the he was there until closing, leaving around 5:00-5:30am.
​

He most likely did get let in whether for 20 Euros or nothing.

He had a phone SIM and used it.

He went to the club that CT claimed he had him thrown out of.

The way people here are treating this is very similar to the PGP when confronted with anything that makes them change any aspect of their grand theories.

I'd ask for the link to these but the current crew doesn't seem strong on that sort of knowledge.

 

[Grinder]

They are floundering on PMF because one member is deriding the others
for no timeline

PS Got a credible timeline?

I don't, but neither do you.
Yawn.

The reply is from Lauowolf who I think is the wife of site administrator Fly by Night, though I stand to be corrected.

Since some of them read here, maybe this will help.

As for the bra clasp, Raffaele could not have got to the bra before say 9 40 on the night of the crime, Nencini not disputing that he opened the Naruto cartoon at 9 26pm..

I found the new link Grinder was interested in to the Gastric emptying scan where the analysis ceases at two hours

http://mercymedicalcenter.chsli.org/gastric-empty-study

The doctor probably suspects that you are digesting your food very slowly. This usually happens because the muscles in the walls of your stomach are less active than they should be. This is a common problem for people with diabetes but it can affect anyone. Common symptoms are nausea, bloating, gas pains and vomiting.

After you eat the eggs, we will proceed to take images with our gamma camera. We will take one image every 15 minutes, for 2 hours. The entire test takes about 2.5 hours.
The pathologist Lalli declared Meredith to have been in good health and the autopsy which was unchallenged by the prosecution showed no gastric emptying.

Multiple witness testimony puts Meredith's last supper at 6 30, but one witness may have suggested later, but no time after 7 30 is cited in any court document, which are beloved by PGP.

Even with the unlikely 7 30, add two hours and we have 9 30pm

Either the Mercy hospital, With 700 physicians, a staff of 1,700, the latest technology, and one of Long Island's newest hospital facilities is wasting their time and their patients' money, or Meredith was dead before Raffaele could have got to the murder.
Given that Rudy has no alibi for this time, but rather claims to have been there at 9 20, it seems certain that he killed as a lone wolf, which is in agreement with what all but one experts agree is possible. A few courts chose to ignore these people

Conclusion:
However Raffaele's dna became associated with Meredith's bra clasp, it could not have been during the murder.

I hope my facts above are broadly correct.

Wrong and wrong.

Prof. Snape is FBN wife.

The digestion time doesn't mean much as it was the mini egg meal. There is no way to say that her system HAD to have moved by 9:30.

Please find where the girls were specifically asked when MEREDITH ate and what she ate. The 500 ml is a much bigger meal then an egg, toast and jam.

Maybe this Steven Jay Gould quote will help some thinking here:

In July 1982, Gould was diagnosed with peritoneal mesothelioma, a deadly form of cancer affecting the abdominal lining and frequently found in people who have been exposed to asbestos or rock dust. After a difficult two-year recovery, Gould published a column for Discover magazine, entitled, "The Median Isn't the Message", which discusses his reaction to discovering that mesothelioma patients had a median lifespan of only eight months after diagnosis.[15] He then describes the true significance behind this number, and his relief upon realizing that statistical averages are just useful abstractions, and do not encompass the full range of variation.​

One additional thought is that the tester knew by the two hour time that they were going to explore their health more.

ETA - It's not Laurowolf it's PK777 asking for the timeline. Could be related to our xxxx777

 

[Grinder]

I have wondered whether the Luminol positive footprints discovered on the second visit could have been the result of someone moving out of MK bedroom in overboots resulting in ill defined Luminol positive smudges elsewhere in the flat.

It could but one would think they would test positive for blood with TMB. I've wondered if a previous tenet after showering had a tiny amount of blood mixed with water on her feet and left enough for Luminol to leave a glow when over applied but not enough for TMB to react.

 

[acbytesla]

Here's what RW posted a while back. I can't find the transaltion right now but I trust RW.

Seriously though,
I'm takin' a break right now from reading the English translation of Rudy Guede's 2nd interrogation with PM Mignini, the one from March 2008.

Anyways, up to page 52, here's just a few of Guede's statements:
He says he met Amanda Knox on the opening of Le Chic, back on Sept. 4, 2007, but Amanda didn't even move in with Filomena, Laura and Meredith until Sept. 20th, much less start working at Le Chic yet.

He mentions that the guy who let him sleep at the nursery school let him stay there overnight for 20 Euros, (not the 50 Euros that I'd read of before) and the guy let him inside by opening the place with his keys.

Guede mentions that he was using the lawyers stolen phone, but with his own SIM, # 329.1819627.

In this 2nd interrogation, Rudy Guede corrects a statement from his 1st interrogation, the 1 we still don't have access to, and states that on Halloween night, he did not meet Meredith at the party he 1st went to with the Spanish gals, but that he met her at The Domus nightclub around 2 am. He also states the he was there until closing, leaving around 5:00-5:30am.
​

He most likely did get let in whether for 20 Euros or nothing.

He had a phone SIM and used it.

He went to the club that CT claimed he had him thrown out of.

The way people here are treating this is very similar to the PGP when confronted with anything that makes them change any aspect of their grand theories.

I'd ask for the link to these but the current crew doesn't seem strong on that sort of knowledge.

Can't you tell that Rudy is lying Grinder? He bought both the lawyer's phone and his laptop and then doesn't have enough for a place to stay?

Interesting that Rudy says it is his SIM. So that means that Rudy did have a telephone number and the absence of any calls or texts between Amanda/Raffaele and him ever, holds even greater significance. I wonder if Rudy had two phones on his possession??? His phone and the lawyer's phone??? And if he didn't have his own phone, what did he do with it? Throw it into a garbage can in Milan? Or is it more likely at his flat in Perugia which would mean that he didn't buy the laptop or the phone at the train station.

 

[Grinder]

Can't you tell that Rudy is lying Grinder? He bought both the lawyer's phone and his laptop and then doesn't have enough for a place to stay?

Go reread what I've been saying. I don't believe he bought it in Milan. Now think really hard, if he is a fence for stuff stolen in Perugia it most likely he would acquire it in Perugia. Now still thinking hard, do you think that he would name his Perugian outlaw buddies?

Although I could easily buy all your computers even the Toshiba 3100 that sold for $30,000 at it new price I've slept in an airport and no spent $150 for a room. I might only have $20 in my pocket but be worth far more. I know that they only found a small amount of cash he had stolen but I don't know how much of his own he had.

I'll ask you to provide some source for this but won't hold my breath.

Do you believe anything he said was the truth?

Interesting that Rudy says it is his SIM. So that means that Rudy did have a telephone number and the absence of any calls or texts between Amanda/Raffaele and him ever holds even greater significance. I wonder if Rudy had two phones on his possession..his phone and the lawyer's phone..and if he doesn't have his own phone, what did he do with it? Throw it into a garbage can in Milan? Or is it more likely at his flat in Perugia which would mean that he didn't buy the laptop or the phone at the train station.

Duh. I've been telling you this since RW posted it three weeks ago. He might have left his phone at home with his pile of laptops.

Tesla, no one believes he bought the stuff at the train station. He brought it from Perugia. Either he stole them himself or they were fronted to him to sell in Milan.

You forgot to admit your train fare argument was worthless since he had to get to Milan either to sell the loot or not.

Now you've been carrying on for ever that he couldn't be a fence because he didn't have a phone but in fact he had a phone and many computers to communicate with.

 

[Anode]

Wrong and wrong.

Prof. Snape is FBN wife.

The digestion time doesn't mean much as it was the mini egg meal. There is no way to say that her system HAD to have moved by 9:30.

Please find where the girls were specifically asked when MEREDITH ate and what she ate. The 500 ml is a much bigger meal then an egg, toast and jam.

Maybe this Steven Jay Gould quote will help some thinking here:

In July 1982, Gould was diagnosed with peritoneal mesothelioma, a deadly form of cancer affecting the abdominal lining and frequently found in people who have been exposed to asbestos or rock dust. After a difficult two-year recovery, Gould published a column for Discover magazine, entitled, "The Median Isn't the Message", which discusses his reaction to discovering that mesothelioma patients had a median lifespan of only eight months after diagnosis.[15] He then describes the true significance behind this number, and his relief upon realizing that statistical averages are just useful abstractions, and do not encompass the full range of variation.​

One additional thought is that the tester knew by the two hour time that they were going to explore their health more.

ETA - It's not Laurowolf it's PK777 asking for the timeline. Could be related to our xxxx777

And I think PK777 was just banned, if you can believe these posts from "fly by night":

Which reminds me - I think I'll delete PK777 today. I can't say that I have a reason beyond trying to reduce the overall post-load for expediency; I'm one of those lazy admins.

It was me that banned you and I didn't even bother to consult with anyone before doing it. You need to consider that I'm not expecting an uproar from the community about it. (smiley face deleted)

I have spent very little time reading that forum. Today I was reading for about 30 min. I think I'm glad this forum exists...

p.s. I guess the timeline request was too much for them? Easier to make the requester go away.

 

[Grinder]

oops need to repost as I didn't explain this enough -

In July 1982, Gould was diagnosed with peritoneal mesothelioma, a deadly form of cancer affecting the abdominal lining and frequently found in people who have been exposed to asbestos or rock dust. After a difficult two-year recovery, Gould published a column for Discover magazine, entitled, "The Median Isn't the Message", which discusses his reaction to discovering that mesothelioma patients had a median lifespan of only eight months after diagnosis.[15] He then describes the true significance behind this number, and his relief upon realizing that statistical averages are just useful abstractions, and do not encompass the full range of variation.

This means that the digestion data even if it applied to Meredith's meal still wouldn't preclude a later death.