[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[Humes fork]

I believe (this is subjective) that religion does more good than bad in the world.

Such as?

 

[Humes fork]

If you think your intepretation of the Koran is the only correct one, you might be an Islamophobe.

How many interpretations can you find of the verses below? What is your interpretation of them?

"And when Allah promised you one of the two bands (of the enemy) that it should be yours, and ye longed that other than the armed one might be yours. And Allah willed that He should cause the Truth to triumph by His words, and cut the root of the disbelievers" - 8:7

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger." - 8:12

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." - 66:9

Allah is also a childish psychopath:

"Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, when carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. Then it is said unto them: Where are (all) that ye used to make partners (in the Sovereignty) beside Allah? They say: They have failed us; but we used not to pray to anything before. Thus doth Allah send astray the disbelievers (in His guidance)." - 40:70-74

Cruelty in the Quran.

Intolerance in the Quran.

 

[mijopaalmc]

How many interpretations can you find of the verses below? What is your interpretation of them?

"And when Allah promised you one of the two bands (of the enemy) that it should be yours, and ye longed that other than the armed one might be yours. And Allah willed that He should cause the Truth to triumph by His words, and cut the root of the disbelievers" - 8:7

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger." - 8:12

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." - 66:9

Allah is also a childish psychopath:

"Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, when carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. Then it is said unto them: Where are (all) that ye used to make partners (in the Sovereignty) beside Allah? They say: They have failed us; but we used not to pray to anything before. Thus doth Allah send astray the disbelievers (in His guidance)." - 40:70-74

Cruelty in the Quran.

Intolerance in the Quran.

And the God of the Bible commanded genocided several times and condoned slavery, yet you don't start nearly as many threads on Christianity as Islam.

 

[Scorpion]

I have written quite a lot of critcism of the quran, and the following proves the quran says the sun orbits the earth.

when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. The hadith is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth, and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 in the quran.

 

[Mister Agenda]

How many interpretations can you find of the verses below? What is your interpretation of them?

"And when Allah promised you one of the two bands (of the enemy) that it should be yours, and ye longed that other than the armed one might be yours. And Allah willed that He should cause the Truth to triumph by His words, and cut the root of the disbelievers" - 8:7

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger." - 8:12

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." - 66:9

Allah is also a childish psychopath:

"Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, when carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. Then it is said unto them: Where are (all) that ye used to make partners (in the Sovereignty) beside Allah? They say: They have failed us; but we used not to pray to anything before. Thus doth Allah send astray the disbelievers (in His guidance)." - 40:70-74

Cruelty in the Quran.

Intolerance in the Quran.

Q.E.D.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

For the record, and as one who has expressed his dismay at the teachings of Islam, I would like to also say that today we celebrated the fact that a very nice friend of ours from Senegal just got his residency papers. He really enjoys nature shows and will often visit our tapas restaurant during my shift, as I always have science or nature on TV.

This is simply in the way of saying: While I truly experience intellectual and even moral disgust at the teachings of Islam, and find its intrusion into civil life unbearable and pretentious, people are (of course) another thing entirely. I see them as victims of ignorance and circumstance.

Only those who threaten me garner my ire toward them (plenty of those all around me, too, unfortunately).

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Such as?

Religious organizations do a lot of good charity work, only you won't hear about it in the news, because there's nothing particularly unusual or shocking about it. I've donated to religious charities before, like the Salvation Army. Religion is also an overall survival advantage because it organizes cooperative behavior within communities. That's the reason it's lasted so long in human cultures. Now, this isn't to say religion is the only thing that confers this benefit. Arts, music, and literature can do the same thing, and as modern society gradually becomes less and less religious, I wouldn't be surprised if art begins to supplant organized religion. However, this isn't something that can be forced.

 

[Humes fork]

Q.E.D.

So you are out of arguments? Good.

 

[mijopaalmc]

So you are out of arguments? Good.

Actually, you conclusively your Islamophobia by choosing the violent verse as being representative of all Islam and ignoring the very site that you took your information from points out the very same sentiments in the Bible as well.

 

[Belgian thought]

Actually, you conclusively your Islamophobia by choosing the violent verse as being representative of all Islam and ignoring the very site that you took your information from points out the very same sentiments in the Bible as well.

So HF showed no sign of bias then?

Interestingly, tonight in Spain, I have been chatting to some christians (catholics), and I brought up their interpretations of their text, i.e. the bible as having many of these types of violent verses.

As expected they tried to justify them and so forth. As I discussed it with them, they became quite flustered. They remanied polite, but they were not happy in the end.

But I digress, since this thread is about islam, we should keep it that way.

Therefore, back to the topic, these verses exists.

Ask yourself a question. What would you think if a non religious aligned constitution were to add the odd 'violent' verse? How would you view that constitution?

 

[mijopaalmc]

So HF showed no sign of bias then?

Interestingly, tonight in Spain, I have been chatting to some christians (catholics), and I brought up their interpretations of their text, i.e. the bible as having many of these types of violent verses.

As expected they tried to justify them and so forth. As I discussed it with them, they became quite flustered. They remanied polite, but they were not happy in the end.

But I digress, since this thread is about islam, we should keep it that way.

Therefore, back to the topic, these verses exists.

Ask yourself a question. What would you think if a non religious aligned constitution were to add the odd 'violent' verse? How would you view that constitution?

It's nice that you completely–and quite dishonestly–ignored the central fact that Humes fork is singling out the Quran for particular "criticism" on a point in which it does not differ from other holy books from the same geographic and cultural area.

Why make such a vehement distinction for Islam?

 

[Belgian thought]

Coz the OP is about islam perhaps...

 

[Belgian thought]

And could you answer my question to you please?

Ask yourself a question. What would you think if a non religious aligned constitution were to add the odd 'violent' verse? How would you view that constitution?

 

[mijopaalmc]

And could you answer my question to you please?

Ask yourself a question. What would you think if a non religious aligned constitution were to add the odd 'violent' verse? How would you view that constitution?

It's irrelevant to Humes fork's Islamophobic particularism and therefore to the general discussion of how his actions are properly labeled Islamophobic.

Why are you derailing the thread?

 

[Belgian thought]

It's irrelevant to Humes fork's Islamophobic particularism and therefore to the general discussion of how his actions are properly labeled Islamophobic.

Why are you derailing the thread?

Coz the OP is about islam perhaps...

Apologies for the derailment - maybe you will be able to answer this question in another OP.

And could you answer my question to you please?

Ask yourself a question. What would you think if a non religious aligned constitution were to add the odd 'violent' verse? How would you view that constitution?

So to avoid derailment ...

Coz the OP is about islam perhaps...

So let us stick to the OP.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Apologies for the derailment - maybe you will be able to answer this question in another OP.

So to avoid derailment ...



So let us stick to the OP.

And Humes fork's singling out Islam for "criticism" when it differs very little in its sacred writings from geographically related religion is relevant to the labeling of Humes fork's attitudes as "Islamophobic".

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Belgian thought]

And Humes fork's singling out Islam for "criticism" when it differs very little in its sacred writings from geographically related religion is relevant to the labeling of Humes fork's attitudes as "Islamophobic".

Why is that so hard to understand?

OK HF may have an agenda, I can only guess . But, a few of the questions he raises regarding islam are valid.

Just as if 'Parris Spoons', if (s)he existed, or 'Harry Knives' (more likelier) would raise issues about other hang ups/worries re religions.

I welcome all input form the Forks, Spoons and Knives. As that actor did not once say ' Life is a tray of cutlery'.

 

[mijopaalmc]

OK HF may have an agenda, I can only guess . But, a few of the questions he raises regarding islam are valid.

Just as if 'Parris Spoons', if (s)he existed, or 'Harry Knives' (more likelier) would raise issues about other hang ups/worries re religions.

I welcome all input form the Forks, Spoons and Knives. As that actor did not once say ' Life is a tray of cutlery'

But again you appear to be deliberately ignoring and flippantly dismissing the fact that, from Humes fork's posting history, the action is not "rais[ing] issues about other hang ups/worries re religions"; it is "rais[ing] issues about other hang ups/worries re" Islam specifically and, most often in contravention of basic knowledge of Islam and, in particular, how the chosen criticisms justify a sole focus on Islam and its problems with respect to the Western world.

 

[Belgian thought]

But again you appear to be deliberately ignoring and flippantly dismissing the fact that, from Humes fork's posting history, the action is not "rais[ing] issues about other hang ups/worries re religions"; it is "rais[ing] issues about other hang ups/worries re" Islam specifically and, most often in contravention of basic knowledge of Islam and, in particular, how the chosen criticisms justify a sole focus on Islam and its problems with respect to the Western world.

Look at the first page of the forum's Religion Section and how many of the opening posts are about islam?

True there might be an agenda for some.

But, it would also be wrong to ignore islam's growing influence on the world and the motives, behaviour behind it since it remains a political religious ideology i.e. not a secular one (and it really never was secular in its history, even in Turkey for example).

Therefore, in the 'secular' west, to fear the undue influence of a religion and the analysis that this faith has it's followers subjected to, is perfectly welcomed in order for enlightened values of the west to remain.

 

[A'isha]

How many interpretations can you find of the verses below? What is your interpretation of them?

I really don't have the time or the energy to go into much detail, but for someone who claims to know more about Islam than anyone else on these forums (with, you say, the possible exception of myself, so thanks for that), you couldn't have picked some lamer examples.

"And when Allah promised you one of the two bands (of the enemy) that it should be yours, and ye longed that other than the armed one might be yours. And Allah willed that He should cause the Truth to triumph by His words, and cut the root of the disbelievers" - 8:7

Here's how Abul A'la Maududi, one of the "Big Three" of Islamism (along with Sayyid Qutb and Ruhollah Khomeni), interpreted that verse:

That [meaning the first of the two bands mentioned] is, the trade caravan, or the army of the Quraish.

[...]

That [meaning the other of the two bands...the Quraysh forces at the battle of Badr were divided into a full army, and a lightly armed trade caravan...the Medinan forces hoped they'd face the lightly armed caravan, but instead stumbled on the full army] is, the trade caravan, that was accompanied by a guard band numbering between thirty and forty.


[...]


This makes it clear that the march of the army of the Quraish towards AI-Madinah amounted to a challenge from the system of 'ignorance' to the system of Islam, as stated in the Introduction to this Surah. Allah willed that the Muslims should accept that challenge and fight a decisive battle for the survival of Islam in Arabia. If the Muslims had not marched out boldly on that occasion, they would have lost all chances of their survival. Their bold march and victory at Badr in the very first battle crushed the power of the Quraish and created such favorable conditions for Islam that after this it went on defeating the system of "ignorance".

In other words, according to Maududi, the verses are about how the small Medinan forces hoped to fight the smaller of the two Meccan forces, but ended up fighting the larger because Allah wanted to demonstrate through the Medinan defeat of the larger force that the "false gods" of the Quraysh were powerless before the might of the "one true God" of Islam".

"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger." - 8:12

Here's what Maududi had to say about that verse:

From what we have learned about the basic principles from the Qur'an, we are of the opinion that the angels were not employed directly to take part in fighting and killing [at the battle of Badr] but probably they were used to help the Muslims in making their strokes hard and effective. But the true knowledge is with Allah.

Despite what Maududi says, much of Islamic tradition has this verse be a description of the commands Allah gave the angels at the battle of Badr, and the angels' subsequent actions, not an instruction to mortal Muslims or a description of their actions (whether at Badr or today).

Ibn Kathir, for instance, writes that "'over the necks' [the Arabic phrasing used in that verse can be translated as "strike above the necks" rather than "smite the necks") refers to striking the forehead, or the neck, according to Ad-Dahhak and 'Atiyyah Al-'Awfi", and records that since the command was given to the angels themselves,

'Ali bin Abi Talhah Al-Walibi reported that Ibn 'Abbas said, "Allah supported His Prophet and the believers with a thousand angels, five hundred under the leadership of Jibril on one side and five hundred under the leadership of Mika'il on another side.'' Imams Abu Ja'far bin Jarir At-Tabari and Muslim recorded that Ibn 'Abbas said that `Umar said, "While a Muslim man was pursuing an idolator (during the battle of Badr), he heard the sound of a whip above him and a rider saying, 'Come, O Hayzum!' Then he looked at the idolator, who fell to the ground. When he investigated, he found that the idolator's nose had a wound and his face was torn apart, just as if he received a strike from a whip on it, and the entire face had turned green. The Ansari man came to the Messenger of Allah and told him what had happened and the Messenger replied, "You have said the truth, that was from the reinforcements from the third heaven."

[...]

Ar-Rabi' bin Anas said, "In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire."