Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Samson]

duplicate

 

[Strozzi]

.
I think it would be provable similar to the way Diocletus has shown that forensic data has been witheld. Initially, the police would definitely want to replay the recordings to search for more clues. They were probably not at all concerned that the recordings would one day have to be covered up, like Nixon and the Nixon tapes.

All recordings would be digital, and since they had a coordinated system, each recording was probably assigned the next computer generated sequential alpha-numeric value available, which was then associated with a separate description of the recording. Each recording would also have a date/time stamp. The recordings and the associated descriptions would be available at the police station, but they would also be backed up and archived off-site, probably many times.

If all the off-site records were made available to a public auditor or investigator it would be easy to use the date stamps, sequence numbers, and associated descriptions to determine if the interrogation recordings were deleted or not. It should also be possible to determine if archive files were tampered with after they were officially created because erasing selected data files would leave a trail which would be difficult to hide.

Cody
.

Very astute observation, Cody. Of course this would require an independent authority to obtain data from the police station's on-site recording system or off-site backup system, and then analyze it.

That will never be ordered to be done, not by an Italian judge. The judges in this case have failed to cause Dr. Stefanoni to actually produce all lab data results. They have failed to order examination of the possible semen stain on the pillow case located under the hips of a murdered woman sprawled on the floor with her legs spread open and Rudy's skin-cell DNA in her vagina. They have failed to order Stefanoni to disclose the identities (perhaps police officers?) of the several other males whose DNA is on the metal hook of the victim's bra clasp.

I think defense attorneys should file a demand for all the above with the Italian Supreme Court so the world can see the Italian Supreme Court reject it.

 

[Skind]

The only reason why 2 slightly stoned young people would have an exact memory of what happened a few nights previously, would be if they had deliberately ensured their stories exactly matched. I would expect most normal people who were having a relaxed evening to not have much of a clue about exactly what time they did anything or what exactly they watched that night as compared to the previous similar nights.

Pretty much. You can guarantee that if Knox had mentioned Naruto in court (without ever being asked IIRC), guilters would have been all over her asking how a young lady with no apparent prior interest in Manga or Anime would suddenly be so interested and attentive that she would be able to recall it years later when there was never any reason to treat it as a special memory in the first place.

They'd be screaming "rehearsed alibi" and "coaching" from the rooftops and be blathering on about how suspicious is it that her memory is so laser-perfect.

 

[Skind]

.
I think it would be provable similar to the way Diocletus has shown that forensic data has been witheld. Initially, the police would definitely want to replay the recordings to search for more clues. They were probably not at all concerned that the recordings would one day have to be covered up, like Nixon and the Nixon tapes.

All recordings would be digital, and since they had a coordinated system, each recording was probably assigned the next computer generated sequential alpha-numeric value available, which was then associated with a separate description of the recording. Each recording would also have a date/time stamp. The recordings and the associated descriptions would be available at the police station, but they would also be backed up and archived off-site, probably many times.

If all the off-site records were made available to a public auditor or investigator it would be easy to use the date stamps, sequence numbers, and associated descriptions to determine if the interrogation recordings were deleted or not. It should also be possible to determine if archive files were tampered with after they were officially created because erasing selected data files would leave a trail which would be difficult to hide.

Cody
.

Given every horror story that supporters of the Italian police have told us about how the police work, is it really reasonable to assume the Italian IT system is worth a spit?

 

[Bill Williams]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. Stilicho makes three or four posts on JREF and the whole thread goes nuts.

Stilicho threatens to expose the twitter-induced differences of opinion in the Sollecito family..... all the while never once explaining why he would be interested in helping a small faction of Sollecitos get Raffaele off a crime Stilicho is convinced Raffaele was involved in; in throwing the blame elsewhere. and the "elsewhere" is where Raffaele himself never throws anything!

I bet all the money in my pocket that in his correspondence with various aunts and cousins, he's never once referred to Raffaele as "knife-boy".

Stilicho, welcome to JREF. This is not the echo-chamber of the PMF's, the echochamber which builds embellishment upon embellishment, and has done so for 6 or seven years, so much so that you can't tell which way is up over there.

Here at JREF, we call challenging one's assumptions the Grinder-effect. No wonder Grinder is not welcome to post on the PMF echochamber, and no wonder people from that rarefied atmosphere rarely post here. Here, Grinder will ask for a cite. Even though he's a Latinophobe, Grinder does actually demand that a factoid be considered in situ.

So to summarize, because I was away for a while, and others have picked up on all of this. Stilicho's echochamber can't help itself but to exaggerate and use hyperbole. Three examples rise to the top.

When trying to flee his captors, Raffaele was stopped at the last hotel in Italy before the Austrian frontier.

Ah, er, no. Raffaele did not even have "captors" before Nencini ruled on Jan 30, 2014. At the time of the verdict, Raffaele was with his girlfriend across the border in Austria. When he heard the verdict he came back onto Italian soil and registered in the nearest hotel.

His "captors" arrived the next morning to have him surrender his travel documents. The captors were so intent on fulfilling the function of their embellished name (ie. "captors") that they actually forgot to capture him.

And rather than Grinder-like parse the meaning of preventative detention as applied by Mignini in 2007, lo and behold even Amanda Knox is described by Nencini as being "legally abroad". You see, embellishments aside, there was no one to capture. Explain that to the original judge way-back-when who thought they were so dangerous that they had to be put in solitary confinement for six months.

This inflated language of "captors" does not serve Stilicho's agenda well, maybe at PMF but not in a skeptics forum.​

There was abundant Raffaele DNA on Meredith's underwear.

When the Nencini court was charged by ISC to examine sample 36i, Nencini rounded up the kitchen knife from the evidence room and gave it to the RIS Carabinieri to analyze. The analysis came back not incriminating anyone, meaning that this knife did not kill anyone.

But Stilicho raises the samples on 165, the bra-clasp. Did Nencini direct the RIS Carabinieri to redo Stefanoni's work on the bra-clasp?

Well you know why he didn't, because Scientific "expert" Patrizia Stefanoni actually destroyed the whole blessed clasp in storage. This means that before the end of the three-stage trial process, the evidence used to convict Raffaele no longer exists.

Ok, let's assume it does exist. Let's assume that what Stefanoni found that no one else in all of creation ever found is real.

This is the clasp that Nencini says also has an unknown male's genetic stuff on it, as well as "Y-genetic stuff belonging to two females".

Nencini uses this to show why contamination could not have happened. You see, without even testing it, Nencini declared the other male-DNA to belong to Meredith's boyfriend. I mean, it could have also been Rudy's, and if Rudy's AND Raffaele's DNA had been on the bra-clasp, then I'd be a guilter, posting in Stilicho's echochamber.

But Nencini simply declares as a "procedural fact", without testing, it to be Meredith's boyfriend, therefore no contamination.

The other two Y-samples? This is where Nencini would qualify as a poster to the hate sites on hyperbole alone.... they belong to women, and as such are there innocently, acc. to Nencini, and not a result of contamination.​

Knox and Sollecito need alibis for the period noon Nov 1 to noon Nov 2.

I think I have Stilicho right on this, and if I don't Stilicho (and me!!!) will get a lesson on the self-correction open debate allows on JREF, for which posters are banned on PMF.

Here, we call it the Grinder effect. Get used to it. It is REALLY annoying.

Anglolawyer asked Stilicho for a Time of Death. Guilters have been asked this forever, with no reply. Judge Nencini ventured an opinion, and to account for all his own misapplication of evidence, actually had to have Knox and Sollecito in Amanda's room messing around at 9 pm, with Meredith alone in her room and Rudy wander around upstairs for two hours....

..... all so that the 11 pm "evidence" would also fit. Nencini leaves unexplained what Meredith did during that time - she certainly did not call her ailing mother which EVERYONE agrees was at the top of her mind.

So Guilters and Italian convicting judges always leave as wide a range of possibilities as needed, to keep Knox and Sollecito shoe-horned into this horrible tragedy. Twenty-four hours of needing an alibi is a lot! And there's a reason for Stilicho claiming this inflated period.... because he knows that if Meredith is gone by 9:30, as stomach contents would suggest, then Knox and Sollecito have alibis apart from their own witness.... so, Stilicho embellishes a tad.

And then top this off with all the AK and RS sightings Curatolo was supposed to have made from 9 to 11 pm, and it turns out that it was Knox and Sollecito climbing in and out of Knox's window to make brief appearances for the drugged-out guy in the piazza.

Leading to another Grinder-like observation: if it had been Curatolo saying that the pair were in Raffaele's apratment from 9 pm to midnight, guilters would be playing the "drug card" against Curatolo as an unreliable witness!​

Such is the peril of posting this stuff on JREF, the skeptics forum. There's other stuff from other posters, and most of the above is repetition.

Stilicho.... can you at least give an opinion on T.O.D. with regard to that 24 hour period you say they need alibis for?

Do you believe Nencini when he says that two of the donors of Y-genetic material (ample material, I might add!) are female?

You've got some pull over at PMF. After all, you're an expert on inconsistencies. Has Michael EVER shown you the bleach receipt he said he had fro the Quintavalle store?

 

[anglolawyer]

Bill you seem to be the only one freaking out. I find it funny that Stilicho shows up with such a lousy point and then hares off again rather than stick around to defend it.

 

[Dan O.]

Given every horror story that supporters of the Italian police have told us about how the police work, is it really reasonable to assume the Italian IT system is worth a spit?

This is tech related. It would be assigned to the postal police.

 

[Dan O.]

Raffaele is going to prison for the rest of his life. Period.

What a stupid troll.

First of all, the maximum sentence in Italy is 30 years. Then there is the sentence reduction that is already locked in. Remember the reduction that was given to Rudy because the co-defendants in a separate trial were given a reduction. It wouldn't be osmotic if it didn't come back to them.

And that's not even getting into the facts that show they are innocent.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill you seem to be the only one freaking out. I find it funny that Stilicho shows up with such a lousy point and then hares off again rather than stick around to defend it.

I dunno.... all sorts of folk are chiming in....

Here's a test, though. Name one guilter (other than Machiavelli) who's stuck around to defend their claims?

 

[acbytesla]

You are right in one respect, Amanda placed herself present, so she could never be represented as framed in a pure sense.

Election 2016, decimal odds for Ladbrokes who put their money where their mouth is. Barak Obama never rose above 1.70 for reelection, though the American press needed a close race for the Chattering press.

Hillary Clinton
2.50
Marco Rubio
13.00
Chris Christie
13.00
Jeb Bush
15.00
Paul Ryan
17.00
Rand Paul
21.00

Is Ladbrokes a bookie? If they are, they really haven't put their money up. They are "setting" the odds to attract bettors, which is a different function. They are trying to equal all the bets from every side so the losers pay the winner and they take the cut off the top.

Wait until a few more Democrats get into the race. Obama pretty much came out of nowhere. Hillary hasn't actually announced she is running...but she is the only Democrat who is mentioned by the press this early.

Amanda will need support from any and all the candidates. Or at least the candidate that wins the WH.

Way too early....is my point.

 

[Strozzi]

J
. . . But Stilicho raises the samples on 165, the bra-clasp. Did Nencini direct the RIS Carabinieri to redo Stefanoni's work on the bra-clasp?

Well you know why he didn't, because Scientific "expert" Patrizia Stefanoni actually destroyed the whole blessed clasp in storage. This means that before the end of the three-stage trial process, the evidence used to convict Raffaele no longer exists.

Ok, let's assume it does exist. Let's assume that what Stefanoni found that no one else in all of creation ever found is real.

This is the clasp that Nencini says also has an unknown male's genetic stuff on it, as well as "Y-genetic stuff belonging to two females".
Nencini uses this to show why contamination could not have happened. You see, without even testing it, Nencini declared the other male-DNA to belong to Meredith's boyfriend. I mean, it could have also been Rudy's, and if Rudy's AND Raffaele's DNA had been on the bra-clasp, then I'd be a guilter, posting in Stilicho's echochamber.

But Nencini simply declares as a "procedural fact", without testing, it to be Meredith's boyfriend, therefore no contamination.

The other two Y-samples? This is where Nencini would qualify as a poster to the hate sites on hyperbole alone.... they belong to women, and as such are there innocently, acc. to Nencini, and not a result of contamination.

​

Stilicho, help me out here. What does it mean when Nencini declares that Stefanoni discovered Y-sample DNA from two contributors on the victim's bra clasp?

I hope Sophie was not involved, but . . .

Seriously, if the Y-matter DNA turned out to belong to Sophie or another of the English girls who were with Meredith at the dinner earlier that evening, it would be taken as contamination. It would mean that Sophie's or another English girl's DNA got on Meredith's hand or clothes or it was on the borrowed book and Meredith introduced into her bedroom. Nobody is suggesting that it was transmitted directly to Meredith's bra clasp by Meredith's hand in the process of undressing, as Meredith had not begun to undress for bed when she was attached (she in fact was still wearing her light jacket when she was attacked). Which means that if the Y-DNA belongs to Sophie or the other English girls, it was introduced into Meredith's bedroom at some point (not necessarily that day) by Meredith, and that it was in the room where the bra clasp was subsequently moved around on the floor in the 6 weeks after the crime.

The Y-matter DNA should be identified. If it matches Stefanoni or any of the policewomen or female lab techs who were present in the house, it is contamination.

If it matches Laura or Filomena or Amanda, it is contamination or direct contact.​

 

[acbytesla]

.
I think it would be provable similar to the way Diocletus has shown that forensic data has been witheld. Initially, the police would definitely want to replay the recordings to search for more clues. They were probably not at all concerned that the recordings would one day have to be covered up, like Nixon and the Nixon tapes.

All recordings would be digital, and since they had a coordinated system, each recording was probably assigned the next computer generated sequential alpha-numeric value available, which was then associated with a separate description of the recording. Each recording would also have a date/time stamp. The recordings and the associated descriptions would be available at the police station, but they would also be backed up and archived off-site, probably many times.

If all the off-site records were made available to a public auditor or investigator it would be easy to use the date stamps, sequence numbers, and associated descriptions to determine if the interrogation recordings were deleted or not. It should also be possible to determine if archive files were tampered with after they were officially created because erasing selected data files would leave a trail which would be difficult to hide.

Cody
.

If it was recorded to hard drive as opposed to tape, you are probably right. It's hard not to leave an electronic trail. But we'll never get there. They have a way of covering up in Italy and no one ever seems to want to open that can of worms.

 

[toto]

Actually Raffaele doesn't support Amanda's story at all.

Raffaele claims that he signed a prepared document at 03:30 and that he had no idea that Amanda had signed anything implicating Patrick over an hour earlier. Raffaele also claims, in his book, that Amanda was screaming "aiuto" in Italian and this appears nowhere in her story (court, prison diaries, book).

Here's what's happening. Raffaele is going to jail. They are going to suggest that he was only there for the cleanup (his abundant DNA on Meredith's underwear). Even though we're past the evidence phase he's doing the same thing Rudy did. He's just trying to get out earlier.

And this is sort of how it works. FIFO. But, then again, I'm an accountant and it all really makes sense to me.

I doubt this very much.

 

[acbytesla]

It's not the wrong way round, I think I get you though Anglo, why not Elizabeth Queen? , but one cautionary note, keep your name short to win the race. Now Jeb Bush for brevity, how does that sound?

God no...no more bush. This relative crap makes us look like some kind of monarchy. You don't inherit the damn job. If the guy's name was Jeb Tree, do you think he would have a chance??

Has it ever been contested that Raffaele asked for a calendar?
I would like someone to contest this claim, because if it remains uncontested, the pagoda collapses as we build the 13th floor.

ETA that smilie thing was unintended at the top.

http://www.cardgamesplanet.com/card-pagoda.html

I understand 13 stories is a world record

clue plus independent clue plus....13th independent clue

Not that I've ever heard.

 

[Dan O.]

It's not the wrong way round, I think I get you though Anglo, why not Elizabeth Queen? , but one cautionary note, keep your name short to win the race. Now Jeb Bush for brevity, how does that sound?
Has it ever been contested that Raffaele asked for a calendar?
I would like someone to contest this claim, because if it remains uncontested, the pagoda collapses as we build the 13th floor.

ETA that smilie thing was unintended at the top.

http://www.cardgamesplanet.com/card-pagoda.html

I understand 13 stories is a world record

clue plus independent clue plus....13th independent clue

Wouldn't it be cool of it were a palindrome record of card pagoda stories


For a troll though there is no limit to how high it can be stacked since there is no base to begin with.

 

[Desert Fox]

Stilicho, help me out here. What does it mean when Nencini declares that Stefanoni discovered Y-sample DNA from two contributors on the victim's bra clasp?

I hope Sophie was not involved, but . . .

Seriously, if the Y-matter DNA turned out to belong to Sophie or another of the English girls who were with Meredith at the dinner earlier that evening, it would be taken as contamination. It would mean that Sophie's or another English girl's DNA got on Meredith's hand or clothes or it was on the borrowed book and Meredith introduced into her bedroom. Nobody is suggesting that it was transmitted directly to Meredith's bra clasp by Meredith's hand in the process of undressing, as Meredith had not begun to undress for bed when she was attached (she in fact was still wearing her light jacket when she was attacked). Which means that if the Y-DNA belongs to Sophie or the other English girls, it was introduced into Meredith's bedroom at some point (not necessarily that day) by Meredith, and that it was in the room where the bra clasp was subsequently moved around on the floor in the 6 weeks after the crime.

The Y-matter DNA should be identified. If it matches Stefanoni or any of the policewomen or female lab techs who were present in the house, it is contamination.

If it matches Laura or Filomena or Amanda, it is contamination or direct contact.

Just to be clear, almost all women are XX chromosomes.
There is only an extremely rare situation where a woman has an XY chromosome. She would almost certainly know it because she would have been on hormone therapy early and had to have her gonad streaks removed. The idea of two or more being together would be very unlikely.

Amanda talks about having kids in her book. Those with XY cannot get conventionally pregnant. Also, even if she had that syndrome, if the cops could not figure that out they are beyond incompetent.

 

[Strozzi]

Just to be clear, almost all women are XX chromosomes.
There is only an extremely rare situation where a woman has an XY chromosome. She would almost certainly know it because she would have been on hormone therapy early and had to have her gonad streaks removed. The idea of two or more being together would be very unlikely.

Amanda talks about having kids in her book. Those with XY cannot get conventionally pregnant. Also, even if she had that syndrome, if the cops could not figure that out they are beyond incompetent.

Well, that confirms it then. Nencini said there is evidence of Y-chromosome women, and he is always correct (it is a procedural fact). The Y-chromosome DNA matter was left in Meredith's bedroom by two of Napoleoni's squad of amazons!

 

[Bruce Fischer]

The pro-guilt crowd jumps on every little possibly negative detail as if it blows the case wide open. And every time it ends up being nothing. This case will not be solved on Twitter.

People like Stilicho love the fact that a couple of people in Raffaele's family are posting misinformation on Twitter. Why? Is it all for Meredith? Of course not. They will cling to anything that can possibly harm those they hate.

People need to take a break from the Twitter noise and read Raffaele's book.

Now, when it comes to the cartoon, Raffaele could have been tinkering around on his computer, opening the cartoon and then something else came up and he neglected to close the screen. Its a non issue.

Does anyone here browse YouTube? Do you watch videos online? Can anyone remember what they watched on their computers last week? Now try 6 1/2 years ago.

The evidence shows the cartoon was opened. Both Raffaele and Amanda neglect to mention the cartoon in their books. The fact that neither of them mention it means nothing. It was not an event that would have been remembered. Watching a movie for a period of time like Amelie would be much more likely remembered.

Now, if someone would really like to make the case that Amanda went out and committed murder, and then talked Raffaele into helping her clean it up, then good luck to you. No one will care or listen.

As far as the Twitter noise goes, this case has been going on for far too long. People can only take so much. We are all watching 2 innocent people being destroyed by an ongoing disastrous legal battle. Nothing said at this point by anyone on Twitter or anywhere else will ever change the truth of this case. Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher. Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with it.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well, that confirms it then. Nencini said there is evidence of Y-chromosome women, and he is always correct (it is a procedural fact). The Y-chromosome DNA matter was left in Meredith's bedroom by two of Napoleoni's squad of amazons!

Should ask how Italy looks at Trans-Genders as well. . . .
Somehow I get a feeling that they are looked down as a second class.
From her book, I doubt Amanda would have much problem with Trans-Genders but still no hints that there were any hanging around.

 

[Bill Williams]

The pro-guilt crowd jumps on every little possibly negative detail as if it blows the case wide open. And every time it ends up being nothing. This case will not be solved on Twitter.

People like Stilicho love the fact that a couple of people in Raffaele's family are posting misinformation on Twitter. Why? Is it all for Meredith? Of course not. They will cling to anything that can possibly harm those they hate.

People need to take a break from the Twitter noise and read Raffaele's book.

Now, when it comes to the cartoon, Raffaele could have been tinkering around on his computer, opening the cartoon and then something else came up and he neglected to close the screen. Its a non issue.

Does anyone here browse YouTube? Do you watch videos online? Can anyone remember what they watched on their computers last week? Now try 6 1/2 years ago.

The evidence shows the cartoon was opened. Both Raffaele and Amanda neglect to mention the cartoon in their books. The fact that neither of them mention it means nothing. It was not an event that would have been remembered. Watching a movie for a period of time like Amelie would be much more likely remembered.

Now, if someone would really like to make the case that Amanda went out and committed murder, and then talked Raffaele into helping her clean it up, then good luck to you. No one will care or listen.

As far as the Twitter noise goes, this case has been going on for far too long. People can only take so much. We are all watching 2 innocent people being destroyed by an ongoing disastrous legal battle. Nothing said at this point by anyone on Twitter or anywhere else will ever change the truth of this case. Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher. Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with it.

Bruce - please tell me you are misrepresenting the import of what Stilicho is claiming? The way you put it makes it sound so..... well, trivial.

I mean, Stilicho is an expert in the inconsistencies in this case. Does Stilicho, expert as he is, ever once mention the "inconsistency" of Judge Nencini of Florence claiming that women have Y-genetic material?

I thought not.

As for this case going on far, far too long. Apparently the State of Italy seems to have unlimited resources to prosecute this case. If Cassazione views Nencini's ruling for what it is - nonsense - then there will more than likely be a fourth trial.

A fourth trial. Read that again, a fourth trial. At this fourth trial there will be a new prosecutor who will abandon both pooh in the toilet as well as argument over rent money as a motive, and come up with something completely different. My guess is that the new prosecutor in 2016 will say that Meredith was killed because she had a London-standard accent.

At one point Knox and Sollecito will throw in the towel because as private individuals, they cannot possibly match Euro-for-Euro the cost of defending themselves from this

And................ following Nencini's example, the Judge in that 2016 trial will completely ignore the prosecutor's theory and invent yet another one. My guess it will be that the murder happened because November 2 was the first day of Battle of Elaia–Kalamas between the Greeks and the Italians.

And this new judge will explain that the murder had to be moved up to Nov 1, just like Mignini had to delay the Oct 31 ritual killing to Nov 1st.

Please remember Bruce, Stilicho is an EXPERT in the inconsistencies of this case. Ergon and Peggy said so. Why you would want to criticize him is beyond me. This is a skeptics forum, after all.