Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

I looked and it appears as if the British government has not official position on Amanda Knox. I am just as happy if the UK just stays away from the issue. I am pretty pleased how many UK posters her support her probable innocence.

A large percentage of those who argue guilt, I really think it is a "I hate America" issue. I believe I saw that with a German poster I argued with.

Wish I had known about Jens Söring at the time. Maybe I could have turned around the whole argument using it. Tried to use the strange Phantom of Heilbronn case as an argument on why one has to be careful with DNA evidence.

I consider it the dumb way to save face. The smart way to save face is to mumble something about reasonable doubt while suggesting that AK/RS* is actually guilty but cannot be proven. Make the case go way. *I don't know if he should be included sometimes because he is the invisible man. Italy does not really care about him and there is nothing that us in the US can do.

I agree that it is a dumb way to save face...but this has snowballed on Italy.
And it was a pretty big snowball to begin with when you look at that press conference that the police held where they were so sure that they caught their perps. From that moment on they were going to look like idiots at some point. Something they just couldn't or wouldn't face. But they have been doubling down on this bet over and over and over. Amanda has been reading much of the Italian press and in her blog she mentions that the tone of rhetoric is all about Italy's judiciary regaining its prestige as if that is the most important issue at hand.

As for Raffaele, I can't see abandoning him. I wish the US could and would grant him asylum..but that isn't going to happen. I hold out hope that the Italian judiciary comes to it's senses...but I admit my hope is small there. Alternatively, I'd love to see the ECHR rule in with a scathing condemnation of Italy's handling of this case...but I'm afraid that is wishful thinking. The best hope in my mind is that there will be some technicality that they will use to make this all go away.

What I'm really afraid of besides the idea of Amanda being extradited, (although I really think that is unlikely) is that this case will drag on for another 5 to 10 years hanging over Amanda's head like Damocles's sword.

 

[acbytesla]

I looked and it appears as if the British government has not official position on Amanda Knox. I am just as happy if the UK just stays away from the issue. I am pretty pleased how many UK posters her support her probable innocence.

A large percentage of those who argue guilt, I really think it is a "I hate America" issue. I believe I saw that with a German poster I argued with.

I'm with you on the UK and their involvement. I think they are probably going to stay as far away from this as they can. And I think that the people in Britain have very mixed feelings about Amanda Knox's guilt. I read at a 50/50 split...which is amazing considering the tabloids over there. So I doubt there will be much pressure on the British government to pressure the US government to extradite Amanda. And as the murder fades into history their will be less. I'ts been almost 7 years and it will be very close to 8-10 years after the event when/if the Italians ask for Amanda Knox. Think about it. Bush wasn't even in his final year in office and the entire Obama presidency will have likely come and gone by that time. And Rudy very likely will not be in prison. This will make any extradition request for Amanda by the Italians seem almost petty.

Maybe I'm wrong about all this, but I really think there is no way that Amanda is ever going to be extradited. I actually don't think the Italians believe that the US will extradite her...and life goes on. Eventually, people like Mignini will die and most people won't care whether she spends another day in prison.

 

[Strozzi]

. . . recording everything for hours and hours, then all of a sudden during the inquisition interrogation the recording stops, then starts again after the coerced confession.

Good point, JREF2010. I had not thought of the omission or disappearance of inquisition interrogation recordings in sequence to other audio recordings made just prior to and just after the interrogation.

The more one learns about this case, the more there is to learn.

 

[acbytesla]

Good point, JREF2010. I had not thought of the omission or disappearance of inquisition interrogation recordings in sequence to other audio recordings made just prior to and just after the interrogation.

The more one learns about this case, the more there is to learn.

I'm really not sure that this argument can be made. While their phones were certainly tapped and many other interviews were recorded, the argument is that the recording equipment wasn't on in those rooms.

Certainly it is fishy that these recordings don't exist but there really is no way to prove that this was something nefarious.

 

[JREF2010]

A large percentage of those who argue guilt, I really think it is a "I hate America" issue..

I think thats a bit proven by the Nencini comment about Guantanamo.

It was around the time he said we have all the time to hear everything, right before he rejected the semen stain request.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think thats a bit proven by the Nencini comment about Guantanamo.

It was around the time he said we have all the time to hear everything, right before he rejected the semen stain request.

Being that Amanda seems to be a Hippie Girl™, she likely does not support Getmo. If you were going to target somebody to push the American noses in excrement, she seems like the worst choice.

 

[acbytesla]

Being that Amanda seems to be a Hippie Girl™, she likely does not support Getmo. If you were going to target somebody to push the American noses in excrement, she seems like the worst choice.

Of course it does DF..but you are looking for logic and rationality. There is little of that as you have noticed. Amanda was painted as a demon right from the start. She was everything that people thought was wrong about the US. Spoiled little party girl from the US who thinks she can have and do anything she likes without any ramifications. The American slut who hypnotized a good Italian boy with her feminine wiles to murder her roommate. That's the story they made up in the first week and they are sticking to it.

 

[Dan O.]

I'm really not sure that this argument can be made. While their phones were certainly tapped and many other interviews were recorded, the argument is that the recording equipment wasn't on in those rooms.

Certainly it is fishy that these recordings don't exist but there really is no way to prove that this was something nefarious.

They moved Amanda into the interrogation room for the express purpose of recording her statement. I see only two viable possibilities for the lack of recordings. Either there was a recording of which the original has been coved up or destroyed after the fact or the prosecutors made an intentional decission that there would be no official recordings when suspects are formally interrogated in the manor employed that night. The "we forgot" and "there wasn't a budget" excuses have no viability. There hasn't even been an excuse for not releasing the written recordings of those interrogations.

 

[acbytesla]

They moved Amanda into the interrogation room for the express purpose of recording her statement. I see only two viable possibilities for the lack of recordings. Either there was a recording of which the original has been coved up or destroyed after the fact or the prosecutors made an intentional decission that there would be no official recordings when suspects are formally interrogated in the manor employed that night. The "we forgot" and "there wasn't a budget" excuses have no viability. There hasn't even been an excuse for not releasing the written recordings of those interrogations.

I agree 100 percent, but that argument is not going anywhere in Italy. I also believe wholeheartedly that it was recorded. But that we can't prove it.

 

[Desert Fox]

I agree 100 percent, but that argument is not going anywhere in Italy. I also believe wholeheartedly that it was recorded. But that we can't prove it.

Heard of "See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil."
In this context it means if you did not see it happen, it did not happen.
I think they shut off the recording devices on purpose so that they could report that the high pressure interrogation did not happen. I think it was intentionally not recorded.

The FBI has been fighting getting interviews recorded as well but finally the policy has changed

 

[acbytesla]

Heard of "See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil."
In this context it means if you did not see it happen, it did not happen.
I think they shut off the recording devices on purpose so that they could report that the high pressure interrogation did not happen. I think it was intentionally not recorded.

The FBI has been fighting getting interviews recorded as well but finally the policy has changed

You may be right DF. But if Amanda had said something extremely incriminating on video it would make their job so much easier, that's why I think it was recorded. But it didn't work out that it was easy and then it got a bit ugly and then afterward, someone said, "we need to get rid of this recording."

 

[Desert Fox]

You may be right DF. But if Amanda had said something extremely incriminating on video it would make their job so much easier, that's why I think it was recorded. But it didn't work out that it was easy and then it got a bit ugly and then afterward, someone said, "we need to get rid of this recording."

Don't forget the original idea was that she did not actually participate but covered her ears in terror? I think they were only focusing on that.

Also, being that if they recorded the whole thing, it would have recorded them striking her (anybody think they did not?) and that would look bad in any court case.

 

[acbytesla]

Don't forget the original idea was that she did not actually participate but covered her ears in terror? I think they were only focusing on that.

Also, being that if they recorded the whole thing, it would have recorded them striking her (anybody think they did not?) and that would look bad in any court case.

I really think this is the dumbest case on the planet....(may be a bit of an exaggeration...but it's close). I find it unfathomable that anyone can think they are guilty. In fact I think anyone who does is down right stupid. Now that doesn't mean I blame them if they honestly believed that those shoe prints belonged to Raffaele. If those were really a match, I'd be a guilter. But since the day those were ruled out, they really have had nothing but a bunch of made up bull feces. Can't say the s word.

 

[stilicho]

Raffaele Distances Himself Further.

The problem for the two is that they were each other's alibi. It would seem to me that while it is certainly theoretically possible that one or the other was involved in the murder without the other, they have combined their fates with their alibi.

Since Raf sits in Italy his fate is more immediate and I can see that his team is feeling extra pressure. At this point I wouldn't blame them for trying anything and Nencini's comments to the press may seem as guide to them.

No one that I've seen has commented on the picture in terms of if it could be Amanda. I haven't seen a coat similar to the one in the picture and she is using the opposite hand to hold the backpack. While people can switch they do tend to be creatures of habit.

Was this in the official trial records? I can't believe they wouldn't have released this the first week as they did everything else.

Grinder is on the right track here and this should be considered by those championing Knox. One correction: they aren't each other's alibi. Sollecito offered an alibi for Knox, categorically withdrew it, and then refused to answer any further questions. Knox did not offer an alibi for Sollecito (or a confirmation of an alibi): his verification was always the heavily-disputed computer activity.

First the enigmatic CCTV video of an Amanda clone emerged on Italian television. Who did that?

Now, Sollecito's own cousin has emerged on Twitter to spar with Knoxophiles over Amanda's alibi.

Here's a screenshot of one of the essential arguments promoted by the Sollecitos:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5313/14251794021_1d08c99894_z.jpg

Keep this in perspective.

Raffaele is going to prison for the rest of his life. Period. Knox has publicly denied she will ever accept a conviction and considers the US a safe haven against extradition.

Raffaele visited the US on three occasions and was even able to secure a promised interview with Microsoft as arranged by Amanda's stepfather. Yet everything (predictably) fell through.

In the meantime, Bongiorno applied vigorously to the Nencini court to allow her client to be judged separately. This was refused. Forlorn, Sollecito returned to his native soil only to attempt flight from his homeland right at the time Nencini was certain to apply the full penalty. An alert hotelier recognised the fugitive and he's not going to get away again.

The Sollecitos have vigorously deployed media resources to portray Knox as absent from his flat. They know the evidence phase is done and we're on to the penalty phase.

For those who want to discuss the emerging new evidence you may wish to follow Cristina Magnani (Sollecito's cousin) on Twitter: https://twitter.com/cri_magnani

There is a growing archive of Twitter screencaps recording the rift. I hope to have a good "one click" resource to help those who are interested.

 

[Strozzi]

Don't forget the original idea was that she did not actually participate but covered her ears in terror? I think they were only focusing on that.

Also, being that if they recorded the whole thing, it would have recorded them striking her (anybody think they did not?) and that would look bad in any court case.

Yes, the two hits themselves may have been audible, but even if the mic did not pick up the sound of the hits it would have recorded Amanda's speech or outcry upon being sruck from behind and policewoman Ficara's accompanying words that she is helping Amanda to remember better whatever it was Amanda was not remembering to the police officers' satisfaction. The mics would also have recorded reaction/comments of other police in the room.

The mic would also have recorded much more which the PLE cannot allow Italian and international media and people to hear, such as the police shouting at Amanda, their animated voices and tone, Amanda stumbling over the language barrier, her protestations of innocence, her crys and screams.

Amanda held true for more than an hour against the hostile police accusations and shouting, protesting her non-presence and innocence for more than an hour before the interpreter arrived. The interpreter described the situation as very polarized and chaotic when she finally entered the interrogation room. It then took the interpreter additional time to overcome/alter Amanda's memory and convince her that she had to have been there at the cottage but did not remember it because she was traumatized - just as the interpreter assurred Amanda she had been when she had a bad accident and broke her leg.

These are additional reasons why the recording must never exist.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is a well presented argument, but there are some facts which are wrong.

Grinder is on the right track here and this should be considered by those championing Knox. One correction: they aren't each other's alibi. Sollecito offered an alibi for Knox, categorically withdrew it, and then refused to answer any further questions. Knox did not offer an alibi for Sollecito (or a confirmation of an alibi): his verification was always the heavily-disputed computer activity.

You have not read either of their books. Since about mid-November 2007 when they were allowed lawyers, they have been each other's alibi.

First the enigmatic CCTV video of an Amanda clone emerged on Italian television. Who did that?

The woman in the CCTV video bears no resemblance to Knox. If it IS Knox it gives her an alibi.

Now, Sollecito's own cousin has emerged on Twitter to spar with Knoxophiles over Amanda's alibi.

This is old news. Raffaele writes about the opinions of what some in his family think.

Keep this in perspective.

Raffaele is going to prison for the rest of his life. Period. Knox has publicly denied she will ever accept a conviction and considers the US a safe haven against extradition.

Sadly, you may be correct.

In the meantime, Bongiorno applied vigorously to the Nencini court to allow her client to be judged separately. This was refused. Forlorn, Sollecito returned to his native soil only to attempt flight from his homeland right at the time Nencini was certain to apply the full penalty. An alert hotelier recognised the fugitive and he's not going to get away again.

Raffaele was actually across the border into Austria when he'd heard about the Nencini reconviction. He returned to Italy. There was no "alert hotelier". The Carabinieri arrived the next morning to confiscate Raffaele's travel documents.

The Sollecitos have vigorously deployed media resources to portray Knox as absent from his flat. They know the evidence phase is done and we're on to the penalty phase.

"The Sollecitos"? Both the evidence phase AND the penalty phase from Florence are concluded. What waits is for the determination of Cassazione.

For those who want to discuss the emerging new evidence you may wish to follow Cristina Magnani (Sollecito's cousin) on Twitter: https://twitter.com/cri_magnani

There is a growing archive of Twitter screencaps recording the rift. I hope to have a good "one click" resource to help those who are interested.

Once again, this is old news. Raffaele discusses this in his book.

 

[Bill Williams]

My view is this...

Guilters have no case, so all there is for them is to take advantage of dissension within Raffaele's family, a dissension which is well documented, and Raffalel has commented on himself. At length.

Guilters try to parse a CCTV video of someone obviously not Amanda Knox, a CCTV video available to prosecution in 2009 and 2013, which was never used..... because....

.... it is not Knox, and if it was Knox it gives an alibi.

What Guilters will not do is discuss this lastest conviction. A conviction based on:

- a one-off Rudy Guede story about an invented argument over rent money
- a story which if true, lends credence also to Rudy's claim that Meredith let him in, which no one believes
- that women have Y-genetic material.
- a multiple attacker scenario which comes from a trial in which no evidence was presented (Rudy's fast track trial-phase-missing trial) and in which neither Knox nor Sollecito had represention​

My prediction is that guilters will not discuss ANYTHING to do with this latest conviction.

 

[Bill Williams]

Stilicho - before casting doubt on either Knox's or Sollecito's alibi.... can you venture a guess as to what time they actually needed an alibi for on Nov 1?

For instance, do you go with Judge Nencini who says that the time between 9 pm that night and 11 pm was basically "down time" where Amanda was supposedly in her room at the cottage with Raffaele, Meredith was alone in her room, and Rudy was wandering around the upstairs for about 2 hours with nothing to do?

Do you agree with that?

Here's a timetable of the four people's known movements... stomach contents alone suggests an T.O.D. before 9:30 pm.

 

[stilicho]

You have not read either of their books. Since about mid-November 2007 when they were allowed lawyers, they have been each other's alibi.

Did you review what Raffaele's cousin posted on Twitter? Do you know what this means?

I have not read all of Raffaele's book. I have read all of Amanda's and I am very well acquainted with the factual discrepancies among her book, her court testimony, and her US media appearances. I am probably among the experts in that regard and people sometimes ask me to help them navigate that labyrinth.

The woman in the CCTV video bears no resemblance to Knox. If it IS Knox it gives her an alibi.

You don't know what an alibi is. Who gave that video to the Italian media? Do you know exactly?

Raffaele was actually across the border into Austria when he'd heard about the Nencini reconviction. He returned to Italy. There was no "alert hotelier". The Carabinieri arrived the next morning to confiscate Raffaele's travel documents.

Huh? He successfully eluded his captors and then went back because he's stupid? Wow.

"The Sollecitos"? Both the evidence phase AND the penalty phase from Florence are concluded. What waits is for the determination of Cassazione.

Really? I thought you guys thought that Rudy cut a deal after he was already convicted. Do you think that African-born "drifters" can cut deals but privileged scions of professionals cannot? What planet etc etc?

The bottom line is that the Sollecitos are not going to be treated like this by Amanda and her supporters. Contempt for the Kerchers is one thing but taking on a connected Italian family is rather another.

 

[acbytesla]

Grinder is on the right track here and this should be considered by those championing Knox. One correction: they aren't each other's alibi. Sollecito offered an alibi for Knox, categorically withdrew it, and then refused to answer any further questions. Knox did not offer an alibi for Sollecito (or a confirmation of an alibi): his verification was always the heavily-disputed computer activity.

This really is clueless. Sollecito HAS NEVER WITHDRAWN the alibi for Amanda Knox. He wrote a book and in that book, he says that he was with Amanda that night. Frankly, I find it interesting that you think that they weren't together. So was Curatolo lying if Sollecito wasn't with Amanda in the Piazza? hmmmmm

This is the problem with guilter philosophy, you can't be consistent with the evidence. There is absolutely no proof that they left Raffaele's flat except a junky who says they were in the Piazza every time he looked from 9:30 to 11:30. And do you think Meredith was killed after 11:30? Seriously?

First the enigmatic CCTV video of an Amanda clone emerged on Italian television. Who did that?

Who did what? You think that fat girl walking through the car park heading AWAY from the cottage is Amanda? Why wasn't it brought up in trial by the prosecution in any of the trials? It was listed with a big X through it. Can you say KOO KOO??

Raffaele is going to prison for the rest of his life. Period.

Maybe, and that will be sad. It will demonstrate very clearly just what constitutes justice in Italy. The courts there have had an opportunity to stand for justice and what they have stood for is saving face. I feel for Raffaele, but I feel for the entire Italian people. They have a justice system that is without justice.

Knox has publicly denied she will ever accept a conviction and considers the US a safe haven against extradition.

The long arm of the fascist government of Italy will not reach into the United States to grab Amanda. You will have to settle for wrongfully incarcerating just one person this time...one of your own. But that shouldn't surprise you. Italy has lots of people in prison who don't deserve to be there. And as long as you have PMs like Mignini and Crini and judges like Massei and Nencini you will continue putting the wrong people behind bars.

In the meantime, Italy will be releasing the burglar, sexual predator and killer Rudy Guede. Hope you're happy with that.