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Endless Punishment, Fundie style

Principle of Sufficient Reason, Frozenwolf. Everything that happens, happens for a sufficient reason, and nothing is a mere "brute fact". If we deny that things happen for a reason, we destroy the entire rational enterprise.

You continue to equivocate "reason" and "purpose".

Discovering, identifying, and describing the reason something happens does not in any way imbue it with teleological "purpose".

The "brute fact" is that the universe does not display "purpose". The universe does not exist "for" anything.

Aside from matter and mind, what else is there? If you say "a mysterious third thing" without saying what that third thing is, I submit it is you who are arguing from ignorance.

Cpl Ferro

You realize that it is dishonest of you to pretend that Frozenwolf suggested a "mysterious third thing", right?

Why not just address the issue?
 
I'm not asking where did life come from, tsig, I'm asking where did the Universe come from.

The material Universe is concerned with natural explanations. We can't use natural explanations to explain why there are natural explanations in the first place. "Stuff" exists, but, why does it exist? Saying "more stuff" doesn't answer the question.

Cpl Ferro

Why must everything have a why? I just flipped a penny: why did it come up heads?

Why? To (mis-) quote god in a Vonnegut Jr. novel: "Then I will leave it to you to figure it out."
 
I'm not asking where did life come from, tsig, I'm asking where did the Universe come from.

The material Universe is concerned with natural explanations. We can't use natural explanations to explain why there are natural explanations in the first place. "Stuff" exists, but, why does it exist? Saying "more stuff" doesn't answer the question.

Cpl Ferro

As long as you continue to equivocate "reason" and "purpose", you will be able to pretend your argument is meaningful. Because it is, in fact, based upon equivocation, it will be a pretense for all that.

There is no "purpose" for "stuff" existing. There is no teleological "why" that indicates the "purpose" of the universe, although some comfort themselves with the pretenses of inventing such.

There are multiple reasons that "stuff" exists--consider the effects of the Higgs field. Naetheless, the discovery and confirmation of the existence of the Higgs field in no way imbues the reason "stuff" exists with the pretense of a "purpose" for the existing stuff.
 
Principle of Sufficient Reason, Frozenwolf. Everything that happens, happens for a sufficient reason, and nothing is a mere "brute fact". If we deny that things happen for a reason, we destroy the entire rational enterprise.
Basic physics demonstrates this to be flat out wrong.



Aside from matter and mind, what else is there? If you say "a mysterious third thing" without saying what that third thing is, I submit it is you who are arguing from ignorance.

Cpl Ferro
Strawman. Nobody but you mentioned a mysterious third thing but you went a step further and claimed that not only was there a mysterious third thing, but that you knew what it was, it's name, attributes, properties, motivations, behaviour, demands, etc.
 
I'm not asking where did life come from, tsig, I'm asking where did the Universe come from.

The material Universe is concerned with natural explanations. We can't use natural explanations to explain why there are natural explanations in the first place. "Stuff" exists, but, why does it exist? Saying "more stuff" doesn't answer the question.

Cpl Ferro

Where did the universe creator come from? "God" exists, but, why does he exist? Saying "he just does" doesn't answer the question.
 
Where did the universe creator come from? "God" exists, but, why does he exist? Saying "he just does" doesn't answer the question.

Ferro has stated that pleading that 'god' is "special" to avoid the inevitable infinite regress is not, in fact, "special pleading". WOnder how that works?

He must have me on ignore...

I really wish he would respond to this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10034500#post10034500
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10034587#post10034587
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10035703#post10035703
 
I'm not asking where did life come from, tsig, I'm asking where did the Universe come from.


Cpl Ferro

You are not asking where the Universe comes from, but why did the Universe happen. Confusing these questions will only confuse the answers. We know pretty well from science where the Universe comes from. If you mean why, then you are assuming that there must be a why, which is not proven. We know a lot of things are random (i.e. have no purpose, no why).

But for you to answer even this unproven why question, you have invoked a "God." That only offsets the question by one step: why God? And where did he come from?
 
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You are not asking where the Universe comes from, but why did the Universe happen. Confusing these questions will only confuse the answers. We know pretty well from science where the Universe comes from. If you mean why, then you are assuming that there must be a why, which is not proven. We know a lot of things are random (i.e. have no purpose, no why).

But for you to answer even this unproven why question, you have invoked a "God." That only offsets the question by one step: why God? And where did he come from?

"...it's infinite regression, all the way down..."
 
Principle of Sufficient Reason, Frozenwolf. Everything that happens, happens for a sufficient reason, and nothing is a mere "brute fact". If we deny that things happen for a reason, we destroy the entire rational enterprise.
Basic physics demonstrates this to be flat out wrong.

Does basic physics explain where the Universe came from, abaddon?

Aside from matter and mind, what else is there? If you say "a mysterious third thing" without saying what that third thing is, I submit it is you who are arguing from ignorance.
Strawman. Nobody but you mentioned a mysterious third thing but you went a step further and claimed that not only was there a mysterious third thing, but that you knew what it was, it's name, attributes, properties, motivations, behaviour, demands, etc.

If there's no third thing, then from whence came the Universe, from matter or mind?

Cpl Ferro
 
Where did the universe creator come from? "God" exists, but, why does he exist? Saying "he just does" doesn't answer the question.

Dear tsig,

I agree, and, that's a good question! I'm happy you asked it. Let me take a stab at it.

If we view it in terms of Hegel, as expounded by W.T. Stace, we have the difference between the real, but non-existent, on the one hand, and the existent, but non-real, on the other. Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space. If I were to seek an explanation for where God came from, I would look to this schema and ask if God were not an entity that is, according to traditional descriptions of Him, more real than existent, more Being than Becoming. (Excluding all questions of the Incarnation.)

Well, you will say, where do real things come from? Where does Being come from? Here there is the possibility of being evasive. I could say, “ 'Come from' implies time, and Being is outside of time, so the question doesn't apply,” but, that doesn't address the meaning of the question “Why?”. Why should there be Being at all?

If Being didn't exist, there would be (according to my reasoning) no source for the Becoming, which reason tells us cannot have existed forever. So, without Being, there can be no Becoming.

But, that isn't satisfying either, because we can still ask why should there be Being and not nothing?

Here, Stace (who never raises the topic of God, mind you) offers a solution, namely that from our experience we can understand that Being and Nothingness are essentially the same. That is, take something, like a salt-pot, and describe it: glassy, metallic, perforated, rigid, octagonal lower cross-section, contains salt, etc., and also “exists”. The salt-pot exists. Now, take away those qualities one by one, until only the “existence” quality remains. What are we left with? Apparently, nothing. Being and Nothing are equivalents. Stace goes on to describe this fact's relevance to Hegel's triadic system of Logic, but, we don't need to venture there. Suffice to say that Being and Nothingness are conceptually equivalent, in this manner of thinking.

If so, we have a problem that needs rephrasing, because Being and Nothing being equivalent crashes the related question, “Why is there anything rather than nothing?” “Anything” and “nothing” are, in this schema, the same, and so there's no conceivable alternative to them. Why should Being be, presupposes the alternative of Nothing, but, if Being and Nothing are equivalent, there can be no question of why, for there is no alternative to the alternative (i.e. Nothing).

So, God is real, but, doesn't exist, and God is real because there is no alternative to His reality, because both Being and Nothingness are equivalent, here. God is a necessary entity, in other words.

Why is God a necessary entity? For the reasons just given. There's no getting away from Him.

That is my best understanding of the situation, at present.

Cpl Ferro
 
Does basic physics explain where the Universe came from, abaddon?

How much "basic physics" do you actually understand? Do you top out at "goddidit"? Until you educate yourself on the principles of expansion cosmology, you will have to settle for, "yes, priciples of physics drive the current theories about expansion cosmology"..

If there's no third thing, then from whence came the Universe, from matter or mind?

Cpl Ferro

I see. It was, in fact, you, then who proposed the "third thing", not Frozenwolf, as you disingenuously intimated.

Since "mind" is an emergent property of "matter", you have left yourself only one answer. There is no "third thing".

Do you ever intend to clarify these?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...0#post10034500
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...7#post10034587
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...3#post10035703
 
You buried your lede:

Dear tsig,

I agree, and, that's a good question! I'm happy you asked it. Let me take a stab at it.

If we view it in terms of Hegel, as expounded by W.T. Stace, we have the difference between the real, but non-existent, on the one hand, and the existent, but non-real, on the other. Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space. If I were to seek an explanation for where God came from, I would look to this schema and ask if God were not an entity that is, according to traditional descriptions of Him, more real than existent, more Being than Becoming. (Excluding all questions of the Incarnation.)

Well, you will say, where do real things come from? Where does Being come from? Here there is the possibility of being evasive. I could say, “ 'Come from' implies time, and Being is outside of time, so the question doesn't apply,” but, that doesn't address the meaning of the question “Why?”. Why should there be Being at all?

If Being didn't exist, there would be (according to my reasoning) no source for the Becoming, which reason tells us cannot have existed forever. So, without Being, there can be no Becoming.

But, that isn't satisfying either, because we can still ask why should there be Being and not nothing?

Here, Stace (who never raises the topic of God, mind you) offers a solution, namely that from our experience we can understand that Being and Nothingness are essentially the same. That is, take something, like a salt-pot, and describe it: glassy, metallic, perforated, rigid, octagonal lower cross-section, contains salt, etc., and also “exists”. The salt-pot exists. Now, take away those qualities one by one, until only the “existence” quality remains. What are we left with? Apparently, nothing. Being and Nothing are equivalents. Stace goes on to describe this fact's relevance to Hegel's triadic system of Logic, but, we don't need to venture there. Suffice to say that Being and Nothingness are conceptually equivalent, in this manner of thinking.

If so, we have a problem that needs rephrasing, because Being and Nothing being equivalent crashes the related question, “Why is there anything rather than nothing?” “Anything” and “nothing” are, in this schema, the same, and so there's no conceivable alternative to them. Why should Being be, presupposes the alternative of Nothing, but, if Being and Nothing are equivalent, there can be no question of why, for there is no alternative to the alternative (i.e. Nothing).

So, God is "real", but, doesn't exist
(emphases added)
, and God is real because there is no alternative to His reality, because both Being and Nothingness are equivalent, here. God is a necessary entity, in other words.

Why is God a necessary entity? For the reasons just given. There's no getting away from Him.

That is my best understanding of the situation, at present.

Cpl Ferro

Thank you.
 
Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

I read that and get the sensation that I'm being played, being set-up for a con. Something in my reason rebels early.

"Whiteness" of salt does exist, because salt exists. Absolute whiteness does not exist, because "white" is a category name and is applied to many differing shades of the idea of the colour.

This white, cursor indicates JREFF background, exists.
That white, points to a boiled egg, exists.

The "white" that is reserved for potential things which have not yet (or cannot ever) be seen by human eyes, does not exist -- just as those potential things do not exist.

The white and the thing-which-displays-whiteness are both extant: the whiteness is a result of physical properties, of photons and their physics.

So, every single individual observed shade of white does, in fact, exist.

There are no observed gods at all.

If you cannot back-up words with reality/observation, then you cannot speak of your words as real.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space.

The bait and switch happens. Real + Being. Existent + Becoming. Huh?

And from there you find enough virtual concrete to build your edifice...

Is faith real or becoming? Is it existent or being? For you reserve that weasel-word as a final fall-back to stop all critical input.

You can turn faith about as a shield to any angle. One moment it is Real and deflecting all hypotheticals; the next it is Being and rebuffing all matter.

You have built your house on shifting ground because you are defending a pre-conceived position and that takes flexibility - all integrity be damned.
 
Dear tsig,

I agree, and, that's a good question! I'm happy you asked it. Let me take a stab at it.

If we view it in terms of Hegel, as expounded by W.T. Stace, we have the difference between the real, but non-existent, on the one hand, and the existent, but non-real, on the other. Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space. If I were to seek an explanation for where God came from, I would look to this schema and ask if God were not an entity that is, according to traditional descriptions of Him, more real than existent, more Being than Becoming. (Excluding all questions of the Incarnation.)

Well, you will say, where do real things come from? Where does Being come from? Here there is the possibility of being evasive. I could say, “ 'Come from' implies time, and Being is outside of time, so the question doesn't apply,” but, that doesn't address the meaning of the question “Why?”. Why should there be Being at all?

If Being didn't exist, there would be (according to my reasoning) no source for the Becoming, which reason tells us cannot have existed forever. So, without Being, there can be no Becoming.

But, that isn't satisfying either, because we can still ask why should there be Being and not nothing?

Here, Stace (who never raises the topic of God, mind you) offers a solution, namely that from our experience we can understand that Being and Nothingness are essentially the same. That is, take something, like a salt-pot, and describe it: glassy, metallic, perforated, rigid, octagonal lower cross-section, contains salt, etc., and also “exists”. The salt-pot exists. Now, take away those qualities one by one, until only the “existence” quality remains. What are we left with? Apparently, nothing. Being and Nothing are equivalents. Stace goes on to describe this fact's relevance to Hegel's triadic system of Logic, but, we don't need to venture there. Suffice to say that Being and Nothingness are conceptually equivalent, in this manner of thinking.

If so, we have a problem that needs rephrasing, because Being and Nothing being equivalent crashes the related question, “Why is there anything rather than nothing?” “Anything” and “nothing” are, in this schema, the same, and so there's no conceivable alternative to them. Why should Being be, presupposes the alternative of Nothing, but, if Being and Nothing are equivalent, there can be no question of why, for there is no alternative to the alternative (i.e. Nothing).

So, God is real, but, doesn't exist, and God is real because there is no alternative to His reality, because both Being and Nothingness are equivalent, here. God is a necessary entity, in other words.

Why is God a necessary entity? For the reasons just given. There's no getting away from Him.

That is my best understanding of the situation, at present.

Cpl Ferro

Not only am I amazed that you believe that word salad, but amazed that you presumably think it answers the question asked.

Do you understand the word "nothing?"
 
Dear tsig,

I agree, and, that's a good question! I'm happy you asked it. Let me take a stab at it.

If we view it in terms of Hegel, as expounded by W.T. Stace, we have the difference between the real, but non-existent, on the one hand, and the existent, but non-real, on the other. Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space. If I were to seek an explanation for where God came from, I would look to this schema and ask if God were not an entity that is, according to traditional descriptions of Him, more real than existent, more Being than Becoming. (Excluding all questions of the Incarnation.)

Well, you will say, where do real things come from? Where does Being come from? Here there is the possibility of being evasive. I could say, “ 'Come from' implies time, and Being is outside of time, so the question doesn't apply,” but, that doesn't address the meaning of the question “Why?”. Why should there be Being at all?

If Being didn't exist, there would be (according to my reasoning) no source for the Becoming, which reason tells us cannot have existed forever. So, without Being, there can be no Becoming.

But, that isn't satisfying either, because we can still ask why should there be Being and not nothing?

Here, Stace (who never raises the topic of God, mind you) offers a solution, namely that from our experience we can understand that Being and Nothingness are essentially the same. That is, take something, like a salt-pot, and describe it: glassy, metallic, perforated, rigid, octagonal lower cross-section, contains salt, etc., and also “exists”. The salt-pot exists. Now, take away those qualities one by one, until only the “existence” quality remains. What are we left with? Apparently, nothing. Being and Nothing are equivalents. Stace goes on to describe this fact's relevance to Hegel's triadic system of Logic, but, we don't need to venture there. Suffice to say that Being and Nothingness are conceptually equivalent, in this manner of thinking.

If so, we have a problem that needs rephrasing, because Being and Nothing being equivalent crashes the related question, “Why is there anything rather than nothing?” “Anything” and “nothing” are, in this schema, the same, and so there's no conceivable alternative to them. Why should Being be, presupposes the alternative of Nothing, but, if Being and Nothing are equivalent, there can be no question of why, for there is no alternative to the alternative (i.e. Nothing).

So, God is real, but, doesn't exist, and God is real because there is no alternative to His reality, because both Being and Nothingness are equivalent, here. God is a necessary entity, in other words.

Why is God a necessary entity? For the reasons just given. There's no getting away from Him.

That is my best understanding of the situation, at present.

Cpl Ferro

Six hundred and twenty two words to say "God just is, no reason needed".


Special pleading (also known as stacking the deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and one-sided assessment[1]) is a form of spurious argument where a position in a dispute introduces favourable details or excludes unfavourable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.[2]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading
 
Principle of Sufficient Reason, Frozenwolf. Everything that happens, happens for a sufficient reason, and nothing is a mere "brute fact". If we deny that things happen for a reason, we destroy the entire rational enterprise.
"Reason" is not "purpose." You keep trying to weasel God into the equation. Also, many things just exist and just happen, even if we don't fully understand them or haven't figured them out yet. Physics is full of examples.

Aside from matter and mind, what else is there? If you say "a mysterious third thing" without saying what that third thing is, I submit it is you who are arguing from ignorance.
You're wrong in a couple of ways here. Mind is an emergent property of matter in every single observation we have ever made as a species. There is no such thing as a mind that exists outside of a material substrate. Also, you've given no good reason to rule out a material cause of the universe. Quantum fluctuations were the most likely cause of the Big Bang expansion.
 
Six hundred and twenty two words to say "God just is, no reason needed".


Special pleading (also known as stacking the deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and one-sided assessment[1]) is a form of spurious argument where a position in a dispute introduces favourable details or excludes unfavourable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.[2]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

What I truly find amazing is that people have spent hours, days, months, and years of their time to find even better words and "logic" to say the same thing: "God is, and that explains why, how, and from what." These people include otherwise bright individuals, who throughout history have tried to produce erudite treatises that "explain" away the obvious flaws in their religions. And somehow they have never been able to see that their use of words is to hide, not to reveal, the cold truth: the fundamental premise of their religion makes no sense and is totally illogical.

And even better: faith despite the obvious logical flaws IS A PLUS: they believe that there must be a god despite the total lack of evidence, and the lack of an undeniable sign. God once was thought to be present in outer space, but now that we can actually look, this illusive God must be in some non-physical location we can't detect. God was once considered to cause lightening, but now that we know it to be due to unequal distribution of electric charges, then God must be responsible for what we still cannot explain. God is of the gaps, and the gaps are getting smaller every day.
 
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Dear tsig,

I agree, and, that's a good question! I'm happy you asked it. Let me take a stab at it.

If we view it in terms of Hegel, as expounded by W.T. Stace, we have the difference between the real, but non-existent, on the one hand, and the existent, but non-real, on the other. Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space. If I were to seek an explanation for where God came from, I would look to this schema and ask if God were not an entity that is, according to traditional descriptions of Him, more real than existent, more Being than Becoming. (Excluding all questions of the Incarnation.)

Well, you will say, where do real things come from? Where does Being come from? Here there is the possibility of being evasive. I could say, “ 'Come from' implies time, and Being is outside of time, so the question doesn't apply,” but, that doesn't address the meaning of the question “Why?”. Why should there be Being at all?

If Being didn't exist, there would be (according to my reasoning) no source for the Becoming, which reason tells us cannot have existed forever. So, without Being, there can be no Becoming.

But, that isn't satisfying either, because we can still ask why should there be Being and not nothing?

Here, Stace (who never raises the topic of God, mind you) offers a solution, namely that from our experience we can understand that Being and Nothingness are essentially the same. That is, take something, like a salt-pot, and describe it: glassy, metallic, perforated, rigid, octagonal lower cross-section, contains salt, etc., and also “exists”. The salt-pot exists. Now, take away those qualities one by one, until only the “existence” quality remains. What are we left with? Apparently, nothing. Being and Nothing are equivalents. Stace goes on to describe this fact's relevance to Hegel's triadic system of Logic, but, we don't need to venture there. Suffice to say that Being and Nothingness are conceptually equivalent, in this manner of thinking.

If so, we have a problem that needs rephrasing, because Being and Nothing being equivalent crashes the related question, “Why is there anything rather than nothing?” “Anything” and “nothing” are, in this schema, the same, and so there's no conceivable alternative to them. Why should Being be, presupposes the alternative of Nothing, but, if Being and Nothing are equivalent, there can be no question of why, for there is no alternative to the alternative (i.e. Nothing).

So, God is real, but, doesn't exist, and God is real because there is no alternative to His reality, because both Being and Nothingness are equivalent, here. God is a necessary entity, in other words.

Why is God a necessary entity? For the reasons just given. There's no getting away from Him.

That is my best understanding of the situation, at present.

Cpl Ferro

Adding and subtracting semantic primitives is solely manipulation of language, a social convention with arbitrary ties to its referents. That kind of math doesn't yield the answers you are looking for. Fun, but misleading.

The way we slice and dice reality with language speaks to how the mind works, and to what senses we are equipped with, but cannot serve as a basis for proofs outside language itself.

These are the kinds of errors that got Wittgenstein to basically tell most philosophers to take a hike.
 
You must admit it's clever, though. If you can make the nonexistence of God proof of his existence, the gates of logic swing wide, and you can ride your unicorn right through.
 

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