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Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Except as I pointed out previously:


Also in c180 the very same author of Against Heresies expressly states Jesus was crucified during the reign of Claudius Caesar ie no earlier then 42 CE. He reinforces this by stating the Herod involved was "king of the Jews" a title at best only three Herods held.

Please, please, please. We have the "Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching" attributed to Irenaeus.

"Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching"
For Herod the king of the Jews and Pontius Pilate, the governor of Claudius Caesar, came together and condemned Him to be crucified.

The passage is a source of fiction. Pontius Pilate was not a governor of Claudius and he [Claudius] was Emperor 41-54 CE.

The passage is completely contradictory and does not state or show at all that Jesus was crucified no earlier than 42 CE.
 
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Yes, that is why Occam would be very pleased indeed.

* my emphasis



The same place all stories come from - people write them.

Even the bible academy doesn't know who wrote them or when.

You're attempt at a 'gotcha' question cuts both ways. The basic questions are all unknowns.

It's not a "gotcha" (please stop mind reading me), but an attempt at illustrating the problem, here: if the stories weren't based on a real person, where did they start ? This isn't like some other topic, where "I don't know" works as a tentative answer. In this case, it's either based on a man (which the story claims to be, and which is very credible) or isn't, in which case one has to explain how it developed.
 
Not one of them names a "Jesus" from "Nazareth", for sure! Therefore anyone who says there probably was a historical Jesus has no evidence. But hey, all these ancient writers were concocted by "author copyists" in mediaeval monasteries anyway, no?

Now, you have admitted that none of the contemporary writers mentioned Jesus of Nazareth then you have a very serious problem.

Your HJ is a Hoax--you knew IN ADVANCE you had NO evidence of your HJ and NEVER had.

1. Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" has admitted the NT is riddled with historical problems, discrepancies, contradictions and events that most likely did NOT happen.

2. Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" admitted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did NOT write the Canonised Gospels.

3. Bart Ehrman in "Did Jesus Exist?" admitted that at least 18 books of the NT are either forgeries or false attribution.

4. There is NO Jesus of Nazareth in contemporary non-Apologetic writings.

5. The recovered Jesus stories are dated to the 2nd century or later.

The EVIDENCE adds up.

HJ of Nazareth is a Hoax.

There was NEVER any evidence and it was known that there was none from the very start.
 
It's not a "gotcha" (please stop mind reading me), but an attempt at illustrating the problem, here: if the stories weren't based on a real person, where did they start ? This isn't like some other topic, where "I don't know" works as a tentative answer. In this case, it's either based on a man (which the story claims to be, and which is very credible) or isn't, in which case one has to explain how it developed.

The major flaw here is even with more modern myths like Paul Buynan, Pacos Bill, John the Conqueror, and Captain Stormalong it is not clear how they developed.

This is also true of many of the ancient Greek and Roman myths. Sure a handful of them are to explain a tradition, the seasons, or some other aspect but then you have other stories that do not fit that model--where did they come from?

Are the stories of the Argonauts the Euhemeristic product of a real voyage?

Are Heracles 12 labors exaggerations of penance for some crime performed by an actual person?

What of Odysseus voyage home and arrival home after 10 long years?

This is the flip side of the Euhemeristic coin you are dealing with--we simply don't know how many myths developed.
 
Is there any evidence that the NT texts were not written where they were found in Egypt?
Some argue yes, others argue no.
The debate over this centers around what Alexandria was, and how we have textual fragments which survived Alexandria that also have fragments or citations outside of the Library of Alexandria.

Because we know this happened, and considering the proposition of Alexandrian origin being presented, we cannot draw a conclusion to Egyptian authorship or origin inherently; though we can postulate.

Also: something else to keep in mind - several non-Egyptians were librarians, teachers, and writers in the great Library, which only adds to the complexity of drawing a conclusion of Egyptian authorship.

Is there any evidence that the Jesus story in the NT was first told & written where the events supposedly occurred in Judea?
Some argue yes; others argue no.
However, specifically, tracking any oral tradition is nearly impossible.
Usually we can only know that a culture relied more on oral tradition than textual at some layer of their society rather than specifically what those oral traditions were. Sometimes we are lucky and some oral traditions pass through history well enough preserved to talk to descendants who still pass on the oral tradition, or someone notes somewhere what they have heard a people orate to each other.

These are few by comparison to the volume of information that is oral tradition of human civilization, however, so this is always a problem.

What we do know is that oral tradition was the standard method of dispersion for the Judean region outside of the Law and priest cast related demographics with the fervor and training to write so profoundly.

How did any writers in 4th-6th century Egypt know anything to be true about a miraculous messiah living 300 to 500 years before in Galilee?

I don't know how suspicious we should be about that. But on the face of things it's hardly supportive of Jesus if we find that the story appears to have been written far away in another country, and not actually known from the region where the events were supposed to have happened.
The post you cited of mine was not an argument for an historical Jesus.
It was a post which only rose some address to concerns regarding a proposition that Egyptians wrote the texts in question as a hoax due to the texts notably being found in Egypt in their earliest fragments.

Raising address unto the full conclusion of a proposition such as this does not inherently follow with "so therefore an historical Jesus was true".
No, instead, it only suggests that the above conclusion reaches too far for the explanations given and the information known to us.

It is one thing to reject the proposition of an Historical Jesus; it is entirely another to assign an origin, authorship, and cultural ownership.

For example -

- why is it that remnants of around 900 different Dead Sea Scrolls survived at Qumran, very close to Jerusalem and close to the activities of Jesus, and yet no similar writing has apparently ever been found about Jesus in that region?

The DSS were written mostly on parchment (only a few on papyrus, and one famously on Copper). Although papyrus may not survive well in the climate of Judea, why couldn’t the NT writers have written on parchment as the DSS writers did in that same region. Especially since the DSS writers had apparently been doing that for around 200 years in that region before the very earliest dates possible even for non-extant (i.e. non existing!) gospels or epistles of the NT … the actual extant relatively complete NT papyrus mss from Egypt apparently date at the very earliest as 4th-6th century ... whereas the DSS from the actual region close to Jerusalem date from c.170BC through to c.70AD.

So the DSS did survive in vast number in that exact region around Jerusalem and from a time typically up to 500 years or more before the earliest relatively complete and useable extant copies of the Egyptian-found gospels and epistles of the NT.
Again, I am not arguing for an Historical Jesus, but you seem to be questioning why we have such a find as the DSS texts while none regarding the gospel texts.

The DSS were not so easily preserved, and it is recognized quite openly in most commentaries upon them that we are so very lucky to have them preserved from this period in history for we have so very little left from 1st c CE Judea due to the Roman's nearly complete annihilation of everything in Judea.
They destroyed the entire temple library, the entire treasury with the coin still in the treasury, entire cities; everything.

The DSS were stashed away in the caves and as such were luckily able to survive destruction and offer, then, a secondary source to many documents found in Cairo (such as the Damascus Document, but there are many other such duplicates between the two locations; of course, there are many more unique to the DSS find itself).

So that the DSS survived in no way should influence our expectation of any group's texts.
We should not expect to find Sadducee party texts, nor any by even the High Priests, nor any legal documents by the Judges.

That we found the DSS is amazing and precisely one of the motivating reasons for such passionate interest in their preservation by the historical community.

A reminder: this in no way argues for an Historical Jesus.
 
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It's just another broken link between the literature we have and the supposed origin in the life and career of an historic Jesus.

One more complication in the whole Rube Goldberg hypothesis that an historic Jesus in Palestine is 'required' to explain the existence of savior cults.
No, it is not just another broken link between the literature we have and the supposed origin in the life and career of an Historic Jesus, because I was not offering any evidence for an Historical Jesus.

I was responding to a proposition for Egyptian authorship of the texts for the purposes of creating a Mythology, or creating a Mythology as a Hoax.

Again, having address to a proposition assigning origin, authorship and cultural belonging does not inherit a position of assigning origin, authorship and cultural belonging equal to the support for an Historical Jesus.

It doesn't inherit anything; it means that the proposition is being addressed where there is issue in the conclusion of the proposition for assignment of origin, authorship and culture - that is all.
 
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pakeha


Yes, something happened in the book trade about the time that Christians invented the general education academy, which (apparently) included "Christianity as Philosophy" courses for curious pagans. That is, a partially exoteric church emerged (perhaps somebody was catching on that secrecy was part of why the Roman authorities thought the Chrisitans were up to no good).

And where should one of these, maybe the first of these, newfangled teaching institutions be located? Our very own Alexandria, not just the hub of intellectual activity generally, but a place in which there grew up a plausible specific demand for Christian textbooks, just about when we find Christian textbooks there.

Forgive me if I am underwhelmed that we find what we find there. Then again, I am the sort of guy who, when visiiting Cambridge (whether Mass or UK), thinks that some of the textbooks I find there weren't produced locally either. I guess I'm not cut out for this kind of work.

I've been Googling about those academies without any luck.
Could you point me towards information about them, please?



Yes, the literature seems to come from anywhere but the alleged source.

Occam ,anyone?


I don't know what Ocaam would've thought, but this pakeha finds it puzzling.



The 'dispersion' of the Jewish people may well be a myth.

"The population of Judea was not exiled at the conclusion of the war with Rome when the second temple was destroyed in 70 CE. Nor was it exiled after the second (Bar Kochba) revolt 132-135 CE. The generations following that revolt witnessed the “golden age” of Jewish culture in the Palestine (as it was then called) of Rabbi HaNasi, the legendary compiler of the Mishnah."

http://vridar.org/2014/04/30/the-myth-of-judean-exile-70-ce/

It's interesting to learn what often-cited notions disappear under the scrutiny of investigation...

Indeed.
Thanks for the link. It's strange how few notions of mine about the first century in Palestine are at all accurate.
Thanks for putting the E in JREF.
 
Thanks for such an interesting take on the pros and cons of a possible Alexandrian origin for early church literature.
Sure thing. :)



While I agree with I think it's worth keeping in mind that the 1st century would appear to be marked by syncretism, superstition and opportunism, if Carrier's article is to be trusted.* These factors might go farther to explain possible origins of a resurrection cult than a straight up assignation of the Jesus story as mythology.


*http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html

ETA:
For your Sunday reading pleasure, I bring you Lucian's account of a notorius and successful (for a time) rip-off on the Asclepius cult
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/lucian_alexander.htm

While based on an actual mythology, Alexander's little enterprise could hardy be called mythological. In the same sense, the resurrection of Jesus cult used Hebrew and Graeco-Roman cultural imagery and elements, yet could hardly be described as purely derived fom either.
I think syncretic would be the best description of the early church's stories about its origins.
I completely agree that this needs to be kept in mind during inquiry; along with several similar considerations.
 
Now that you mention it, that is a puzzle given the enormous variety and amount of literature produced by the early church from the second century onward.
Are you puzzled by the lack of texts early on and the mass volume of texts by the early varied Orthodoxies; is this what you are referring to as puzzling you?
 
Yes.
Sorry to be unclear.
That is not entirely surprising considering that the DSS' survival is an outstanding surprise and much appreciated stroke of luck.

We have hardly anything from 1st c CE Judea; most anything about the era is from outside sources or later commentary (such as Josephus et. al.).

For example, we have no official Judean record for who the High Priests were during this period, nor which political parties were doing what for what purpose.

We also lack any substantial body of legal documents from proceedings for this era.

While the diaspora is exaggerated, or just simply misunderstood what such things were like by many, there is indeed no doubt at all that Jerusalem's institutions were absolutely destroyed to the fullest extent.

Further, IF (everyone else reading along, please note the giant "IF") we are to hold an axiom of Hebrew origin and then question where the texts are for this alleged Rabbi who was followed, we would first have to question whether we have any texts on mass regarding the teachings of any teachers within 200 years surrounding this alleged individual's time.

As we can notice, there is a drastic lacking of such documentation outside of the DSS itself, and that in itself is yet another reason that the DSS is remarkable, for their cult was one which specifically and uniquely charged its adherents with textual imperative.
This attribute is one of the multiple influential pieces of information that causes the assignment to be granted for the DSS origin to be fall-away priest caste of the late BCE era, as it was not common practice for sects to catalog writing or require such as a part of their religious rituals for the common Hebrew.

Now, even if we do not accept the Hebrew origin and discount any such figure as an Historical Jesus as extant, then it would still not be surprising to not find texts until later, as it would only be post-Diaspora that such stories would arise for we have already established that it would be unlikely for Hebrews to write within their culture, in large enough volume to cause fragmentary survival, regarding their non-Temple teachers, so it would only be upon a wider interest of travel to other regions and upon those region's individuals hearing of any given stories of whatever was of interest that provocation would be fixated upon for the interest of writing.

It is, then, entirely possible (meaning, the idea is not impossible; this does not mean this is the case) for these texts and their stories to have arose as an inspiration from stories and legends circulating from Hebrew peoples traveling out of the region, and could have become a standard theatrical show of Anatolia and a literary prose of Alexandria.
We cannot immediately, quickly, or easily rule this possibility out.
 
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It's not a "gotcha" (please stop mind reading me), but an attempt at illustrating the problem, here: if the stories weren't based on a real person, where did they start ? This isn't like some other topic, where "I don't know" works as a tentative answer. In this case, it's either based on a man (which the story claims to be, and which is very credible) or isn't, in which case one has to explain how it developed.

You seem to assume that IF there was an historic Jesus there would be no need to 'explain'.

Either way, the texts we have stand in need of explanation.

The 'story' of Paul doesn't appear to be in need of an extra element to what he claims - scripture and visions.
 
The major flaw here is even with more modern myths like Paul Buynan, Pacos Bill, John the Conqueror, and Captain Stormalong it is not clear how they developed.

This is also true of many of the ancient Greek and Roman myths. Sure a handful of them are to explain a tradition, the seasons, or some other aspect but then you have other stories that do not fit that model--where did they come from?

Are the stories of the Argonauts the Euhemeristic product of a real voyage?

Are Heracles 12 labors exaggerations of penance for some crime performed by an actual person?

What of Odysseus voyage home and arrival home after 10 long years?

This is the flip side of the Euhemeristic coin you are dealing with--we simply don't know how many myths developed.

There's much we don't know.

hy this is an especial problem to a literary origin is unclear at best.
 
It is, then, entirely possible (meaning, the idea is not impossible; this does not mean this is the case) for these texts and their stories to have arose as an inspiration from stories and legends circulating from Hebrew peoples traveling out of the region, and could have become a standard theatrical show of Anatolia and a literary prose of Alexandria.
We cannot immediately, quickly, or easily rule this possibility out.

It is not only possissible that these texts were not of Hebrew origin but ALL dated manuscripts of the Jesus story were found in Greek or other NON-Hebrew languages and outside of the region.

"We cannot rule out evidence with baseless speculation.

The Jesus stories have been found in Greek, Latin, Syriac but not a single one in Hebrew.

There is simple no evidence to support any argument that the Jesus story was of Hebrew origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_Latin_manuscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Syriac_New_Testament_manuscripts

The Jesus story was NEVER part of Jewish culture based on the abundance of evidence.

The Jesus story is of Non-Jewish origin.
 
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I'm a bit confused why you reiterated the same comment there, Dejudge.
I don't mind that you find something in my post agreeable, but you kind of went on a rant in following along with an agreement.

I'm curious, and this is purely just on the side, but does this topic really boil your passion?
Do you wake in the day looking forward to digging at the topic of the historicity of Jesus?

To be clear, since text is often not, this would not be a bad thing; there are scores of people who do have such passion over the subject.
I am only compelled to ask due to the fervor in your articulated style.
 
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I'm a bit confused why you reiterated the same comment there, Dejudge.
I don't mind that you find something in my post agreeable, but you kind of went on a rant in following along with an agreement.

I'm curious, and this is purely just on the side, but does this topic really boil your passion?
Do you wake in the day looking forward to digging at the topic of the historicity of Jesus?

To be clear, since text is often not, this would not be a bad thing; there are scores of people who do have such passion over the subject.
I am only compelled to ask due to the fervor in your articulated style.

Your repeated rhetorical posts are really useless in this discussion.

I am dealing with the recovered dated manuscripts of the Jesus story.

There is NO recovered dated evidence which can support you speculation.

The abundance of evidence shows that the Jesus story was of non-Jewish origin and that there is no evidence of pre 70 CE Jesus story and cult in Judea.
 
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An odd response there, Dejudge.

I wasn't being rhetorical, nor was my post about Jesus in any means this time.
I was asking you a question about how much you like the subject matter.
 
It is not only possissible that these texts were not of Hebrew origin but ALL dated manuscripts of the Jesus story were found in Greek or other NON-Hebrew languages and outside of the region.

"We cannot rule out evidence with baseless speculation.

The Jesus stories have been found in Greek, Latin, Syriac but not a single one in Hebrew.

There is simple no evidence to support any argument that the Jesus story was of Hebrew origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_Latin_manuscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Syriac_New_Testament_manuscripts

The Jesus story was NEVER part of Jewish culture based on the abundance of evidence.

The Jesus story is of Non-Jewish origin.

Actually as related in A&E's Who Wrote the Bible (the episode of that name not the whole series and not Robert Beckford's show of the same name) by the supposed time of Jesus Hebrew had effectively fell out of favor as "even though their religious text were still in Hebrew their home language had become entirely Greek"

Josheph Blankinsopp, Professor of Biblical Studies University of Notre Dame states "If you couldn't speak Greek by say the time of early Christianity you couldn't get a job. You wouldn't get a good job. a professional job. You had to know Greek in addition to your own language. And so you were getting to a point where Jews...the Jewish community in say Egypt and large cities like Alexandria didn't know Hebrew anymore they only knew Greek. And so you need a Greek version in the synagogue."

We are then told of the Septuagint (3rd century BCE) and Rabbi David Wolpe, lecturer at the University of Judaism explains why this was so important historically

So if Jews especially in the large cities didn't even know Hebrew why in the name of sanity would anyone with a brain in their head write a Gospel in Hebrew for them? That would be like in 2012 writing a major work in Latin for Roman Catholics and about as nonsensical.
IMHO the early Church fathers heard of a Jewish Gospel and assumed that it was in Hebrew. Back on Planet Reality if there ever had been a Jewish Gospel odds are it would have been written in Greek not Hebrew.

Looking for the "historical" Gospel Jesus is as meaningless as looking for the "historical" Robin Hood former Earl of Locksley or "historical" King Arthur Pendragon bastard son of Uther Pendragon and Lady Igraine--those versions are non-historical in that they never existed even if they are based on people who actually lived.

With "historical" candidates for Robin Hood and King Arthur Pendragon a full two centuries outside their traditional times what is so off the wall about a candidate for Jesus being outside the time period the Gospels are set in?
 
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