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[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

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It'a a movement.

I hope they are successful.

Remember, I claimed that Islam is in the beginnings of a Reformation.

A claim which you have not supported.

My own, I studied.

:rolleyes:

I recommend the book A World Without Islam by Graham Fuller;

Thank you. I'll check it out.

or Googling 'Islamic Reformation'.

I've Googled it. Which is why I know how problematic the idea of "reformation" in Islam is and how even thinking about it in those terms is an example of Western bias and western-centric thinking..
 
One of the many ironies of this thread is that it definitively demonstrates that Islamophobes are unambiguously not phobic of being called "Islamophobic". If anything, labeling the resident JREF Islamophobes "Islamophobic" has made Humes fork, MontagK505, and Tony "criticize" Islam even more vehemently while accusing people of trying to silence them. :boggled:
 
Malaysia? You mean that country that Constitutionally defines Malays as being Muslims, which forbids their apostasy and which forces citizens to have "government approved" religious identification on their cards? Sure, bastion of religious freedom and tolerance there. :rolleyes:


Right. So I guess that is a "No".
 
No, it doesn't. Suggesting that Muslims are unable to interpret their scriptures to conform to modernity the same way Jews and Christians do would make you a bigot.

<snip>

Yes, for the same reasons they arose in the West. What Islam is going through now is actually pretty similar to what was happening in the early parts of the Christian reformation, including the violence. The main difference in violence is that bombs and automatic weapons are now available.

Raising the questions doesn't make you a bigot. Already being convinced you know all the answers to them might.

If Christian Crusaders had automatic weapons and bombs it's likely the enlightenment would have been delayed by several centuries, if ever. That's the problem, this is the 21st century not the 12th. This world has too many countries whose politics are 12th century.

Sorry, you're wrong, simply raising the questions does make me a bigot in some peoples eyes.
 
Malaysia? You mean that country that Constitutionally defines Malays as being Muslims, which forbids their apostasy and which forces citizens to have "government approved" religious identification on their cards? Sure, bastion of religious freedom and tolerance there. :rolleyes:

Here is a link to a copy of the Malaysian Constitution. I was unable to find a clause defining Malays as Muslims (Islam is the official religion of the Federation, but citizens of other religions have guarantees of equal rights). I was unable to find the 'approved religion' bit in the Constitution either, are you sure that's not more a matter of Malaysian legislation rather than actually enshrined in their Constitution?

I don't believe 'bastion of religious freedom and tolerance' was the claim.

http://confinder.richmond.edu/admin/docs/malaysia.pdf
 
I hope they are successful.

Me, too. Much like Christianity did during the reformation, Islam is beginning a process of fragmentation which is unlikely to stop in the foreseeable future, because there is no central authority at all to stop it. The result will be an Islamic pluralism with different sects competing with one another for 'market share'. Secularism is easier to achieve under such conditions: when 90% of the people are the same sect, it's hard to get that 90% to see the advantages of separation of church and state.


A claim which you have not supported.

Unlike your claims, which you've documented so thoroughly. Do you really need me to spoon feed you information so readily available? Shouldn't your agreement or disagreement come AFTER you've researched it?


Yes, you can't understand the simple sentence "You've mistaken my conclusion based on study for an assumption" as not being about a study, and I'm the one who gets the eye roll. Have you never reached conclusions about something by studying it, is that why your eyes just can't see the difference between 'study' and 'a study'? Or are you just getting in your sneering quota for the day?

Thank you. I'll check it out.

I've Googled it. Which is why I know how problematic the idea of "reformation" in Islam is and how even thinking about it in those terms is an example of Western bias and western-centric thinking..

At least now you think you know why it's problematic, coincidentally in exactly the same terms you guessed it was problematic before you did any checking.

To quote someone I think you respect: "A claim which you have not supported."

I should have known that to you, 'to Google' means to 'seek a source that confirms my bias'.
 
If Christian Crusaders had automatic weapons and bombs it's likely the enlightenment would have been delayed by several centuries, if ever. That's the problem, this is the 21st century not the 12th. This world has too many countries whose politics are 12th century.

Yes, it does.

Sorry, you're wrong, simply raising the questions does make me a bigot in some peoples eyes.

In order for me to be wrong, that would have to actually make you a bigot, not just make you considered a bigot in some people's eyes. Of course, a pattern of raising such questions with pre-determined answers in mind could actually make you a bigot, maybe that's what you have in mind.
 
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I reject categorically that any religious doctrine, especially in terms of canonical core teachings, should be treated any differently from political or social doctrine. The inspiration may be different (i.e., even less thought given to basing things on evidence), but there are dangers inherent in any social dogma, stemming from the utterly grotesque base assumption that any such body of thought could remotely approach immutable truth.

(Why the cautious tip-toeing around religion on JREF, of all places, might I ask?)

In the case of faith, I consider calls for 'respect' a parlor trick aimed squarely at skewing debate toward the fanciful and unreal, cloaked in dripping sentimentality about the rights and needs of what are essentially misled and misguided people, without a sensible argument in defense of those ideas, or who are in many cases professional exploiters of credulity for profit.

Sorry, but erroneous statements about matters of fact abound in any religious text. "Respect" is not a word I would reserve for such drivel. Myth can be instructive, but like Santa Claus, is something to be outgrown quickly.

And just as in the case of political thought, there are clear factual differences among religious creeds that squarely place some in the nasty box of rigid totalitarian intolerance and absolutist abrogation of the mere existence of the rights of non-believers, let alone any concession to non-religious criteria of any kind in civil society, as a matter of core canon.

Any faith, or political or social creed that teaches, as a matter of canon and not merely as a result of the twisted practices of the few, that non-adherents have fewer rights, or any less legitimacy, or argues for the elimination of civil law, is a pile of utter nonsense that should be ridiculed whenever possible, and fought strenuously whenever and wherever it becomes aggressive. Any body of thought that would have its followers murder, as a matter of core canon, those who leave or simply deny the faith should be banned outright as totalitarian hate speech fundamentally incompatible with modern society.

If a group would like to hold themselves, among themselves, accountable to 'higher' purposes above and beyond civil law, fine. The minute any statement is made to go beyond that private realm, or any attempt is made to make general matters of public conscience subject to their restricted criteria in any way, or to force dissenting members to remain in the sect, then it's time to oppose that doctrine. One may advocate for many things in use of free speech, but to advocate for the death of others is unequivocally incitement to murder, a crime, and so punishable to the fullest extent of the law, with no concessions to religious sensitivities.

A great deal of the sermons published by those preaching Islam in the UK and in the US, indeed, the world over, contain many such calls, in very very crude terms, based on the canon. Ditto for some nut-job Christian pastors around the world who, imo, cannot read. Time for a wake-up, then reinforcement of laws regarding freedom from religion, including severe punishments for advocating mistreatment of women, non-believers, apostates, or anyone else. This is especially true for sects and faiths having no central authority to approach in order to lessen the extremes, such as Islam, or Protestantism.

I suppose quite a few will throw the islamophobic label my way enthusiastically, but I feel the same for any creed or notion advocating the rule of stupidity and killing in its name, regardless.

All around the borders of Islam today, from north to south Asia, to Europe and across Africa, are wars of religion and attempts to impose Islamic doctrine. Within those borders, wars and acts of terror to ensure compliance and enforce the local brand of purity. To deny that is to live as an ostrich wholly given to either fear or, worse, wishful thinking.

Those who would defend the ridiculous under the guise of tolerance, adhering themselves, wittingly or no, to fixed doctrine based on dubious criteria, do themselves and society a disservice by delaying and obfuscating clarity in debate. Worse, like Chamberlain's policies, they open the door, wide, to a much worse future through such appeasement. Those are the intentions the road to hell is paved with.

Free inquiry, to remain free, cannot advocate its opposite without undue sacrifice and, eventually, self-annihilation.
 
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Free inquiry can't say it's okay for people to be biased and inaccurate, as long as they're talking about something we're against.
 
You know, Islam is badly in need of a muzzling, like what Christianity got, in the form of a fractal fracturing Reformation and an Enlightenment, preferably both at once should such a thing be possible; there are too many Muslims engaging in violence and oppression in the name of their religion, we should employ every ethical means to suppress Islamic extremists...which in some cases can include violence...and encourage Islamic movements and organizations that undermine fundamentalism.

I can criticize Islam AND Muslims pretty freely, even advocate violence against Islamic terrorists, and yet don't have to worry about anyone around here whose respect on the subject matters to me in the slightest calling me an Islamophobe. It's like all I have to do is not over-generalize and refrain from cheap debating tactics, and I'm golden.
 
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Hlafordlaes said:
I reject categorically that any religious doctrine, especially in terms of canonical core teachings, should be treated any differently from political or social doctrine.
Agreed. Which is why I find Islamophobes so reprehensible--they consider it appropriate to abandon the principles of logic, reason, and rational (and sometimes even coherent) discourse in order to attack Islam. They'd never tolerate that regarding any other belief system (well....giving them the benefit of the doubt here, in some cases....).

The rest of your post more or less shows that you haven't been paying attention. NO ONE criticizing HF et al. in the past three threads on this topic has EVER argued that we can't criticize Islam. What has been argued is that we must criticize it AS IT IS, and NOT as we wish it to be. This is the foundational principle of rationality: the world exists outside our heads, and we must conform to it, rather than having it conform to us. Somehow HF et al. have convinced some people that this bedrock principle of all reason, including skepticism, is somehow "tiptoeing around religion". Give me a freaking break--if the best attack you can launch against religion is a lie, you have no argument. If you view the reminder that you must deal with the facts, and not your own fantasies, as an onerous restriction, you are not engaging in honest debate. Don't like it? Tough. These are EXACTLY the same principles advocated by EVERY skeptic. Argue with Sagan, not me.
 
You have, as usual,2 extremes:the Islamophobes who paint all Muslims with the same brush on one hand, and those who, for various reasons, don't want to see Islamic Fundamentalism as a major problem. Both are barking up the wrong tree, and neither is helping the situation.
 
You have, as usual,2 extremes:the Islamophobes who paint all Muslims with the same brush on one hand, and those who, for various reasons, don't want to see Islamic Fundamentalism as a major problem.

And then you have the rest of the forum saying "Islam is a problem, but let's be rational about discussing it." And those people are called Islamophiles, faitheists, etc., and people say that we don't see Islamic fundamentalism as a major problem. ;)
 
Agreed. Which is why I find Islamophobes so reprehensible--they consider it appropriate to abandon the principles of logic, reason, and rational (and sometimes even coherent) discourse in order to attack Islam. They'd never tolerate that regarding any other belief system (well....giving them the benefit of the doubt here, in some cases....).

So far so good...

The rest of your post more or less shows that you haven't been paying attention. NO ONE criticizing HF et al. in the past three threads on this topic has EVER argued that we can't criticize Islam. What has been argued is that we must criticize it AS IT IS, and NOT as we wish it to be. This is the foundational principle of rationality: the world exists outside our heads, and we must conform to it, rather than having it conform to us. Somehow HF et al. have convinced some people that this bedrock principle of all reason, including skepticism, is somehow "tiptoeing around religion".

As an aside, I'd say this sort of thing acts to keep infrequent folks out of JREF. Please don't expect casual readers to focus mostly on the internal dynamics among frequent posters, rather than the main issues under discussion. My post has nothing to do with Hume's Fork's (or anyone else's) track record on the board, against or for. How could I know about any of that?

My impression, gleaned from skimming some threads, was simply that, my impression.

Give me a freaking break--if the best attack you can launch against religion is a lie, you have no argument. If you view the reminder that you must deal with the facts, and not your own fantasies, as an onerous restriction, you are not engaging in honest debate. Don't like it? Tough. These are EXACTLY the same principles advocated by EVERY skeptic. Argue with Sagan, not me.

I am assuming you are no longer addressing my post in these comments, rather board history. If I am wrong, please restate more specifically, and I'd gladly respond.
 
You know, Islam is badly in need of a muzzling, like what Christianity got, in the form of a fractal fracturing Reformation and an Enlightenment, preferably both at once should such a thing be possible; there are too many Muslims engaging in violence and oppression in the name of their religion, we should employ every ethical means to suppress Islamic extremists...which in some cases can include violence...and encourage Islamic movements and organizations that undermine fundamentalism.

Because I have a background as an erstwhile believer, I can remember the warnings about attending "mainstream" seminaries. Fundamentalist in, doubter out. The main problem being that in seminary, one learns about how the bible was put together. The bible as "literal word of God" and sole source of thinking is actually more part of protestant thinking than it was in the past (see Nicene Creed and idea of apostolic succession, missing in protestantism). At least, that's how I remember things at this writing.

More to the point, herein lies one major concern I have about Islam. In contrast with the general historical awareness, even recognition, of the manner in which the scriptures were generated in Christianity, which made textual criticism possible, there is no such recognition in Islam. (After all, it was a Roman emperor who ordered that an authoritative biblical text be put together. There was no pristine single copy to pay slave to, and the essence of the faith was defined by synods and in creeds.)

In the case of Islam, we have a sacred immovable text, so 'perfect' and unamendable that only the original classical Arabic is considered valid for the practice of true Islam. (Which in turn has produced arguments regarding the perfection of classical Arabic, which gives me nausea as a trained historical linguist.) This, in my mind, this absolutism at the level of the Koran itself, is the key obstacle to the modernization of the faith as practiced, and is what threatens a return to its worst forms at any time.

I perceive it as sort of a 'Dale Carnegie' one-upsmanship, making its absolutism more influential and so taking it to the next, and now impossible, level, perhaps a ploy to make it more competitive with the well established Jewish and Christian faiths in the area at the time. But its consequences are nasty.
 
One of the many ironies of this thread is that it definitively demonstrates that Islamophobes are unambiguously not phobic of being called "Islamophobic". If anything, labeling the resident JREF Islamophobes "Islamophobic" has made Humes fork, MontagK505, and Tony "criticize" Islam even more vehemently while accusing people of trying to silence them. :boggled:

I merely stated that some people would regard my raising questions about Islamic religious ideology as bigoted. Do you really see this statement as an accusation that I think people are trying to silence me? I think you need to use a smaller brush.
 
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Here's the thing...

I have known muslims who were frothing fundamentalists, blatant opportunists, outright criminals, lip-service merchants, devout, ex-muslims, pacifists, apathetic, honest to a fault, people one would entrust with your life, people one would NOT entrust with your life, saints, scholars, skeptics and so on.

Now replace the highlighted with "I have known christians" and that para remains true.

Now replace the highlighted with "I have known skeptics" and that para remains true.

Now replace the highlighted with "I have known new agers" and that para remains true.

Well, you get the picture by now. It is true of any group. And it is also why the broad brush does not work.

So who would I rank as the worst? How could you rank that?

I suggest that the christians fundies are the worst. They are actively trying to drag humanity back into medieval times.
 
Here's the thing...

I have known muslims who were frothing fundamentalists, blatant opportunists, outright criminals, lip-service merchants, devout, ex-muslims, pacifists, apathetic, honest to a fault, people one would entrust with your life, people one would NOT entrust with your life, saints, scholars, skeptics and so on.

Now replace the highlighted with "I have known christians" and that para remains true.

Now replace the highlighted with "I have known skeptics" and that para remains true.

Now replace the highlighted with "I have known new agers" and that para remains true.

Well, you get the picture by now. It is true of any group. And it is also why the broad brush does not work.

So who would I rank as the worst? How could you rank that?

I suggest that the christians fundies are the worst. They are actively trying to drag humanity back into medieval times.

I think the American Taliban does exist, and the people they hate more than atheists are moderate Christians who don't like being dictated to by people they don't respect.
 
If Christian Crusaders had automatic weapons and bombs it's likely the enlightenment would have been delayed by several centuries, if ever. That's the problem, this is the 21st century not the 12th. This world has too many countries whose politics are 12th century.

Sorry, you're wrong, simply raising the questions does make me a bigot in some peoples eyes.

Are you suggesting that the method of murder has some bearing on the validity of criticism? Or that if critics could be eliminated more efficiently, the question would not arise?
 
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