Merged Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with federal

[gph]

I agree.

Can we split the thread, Mods? Please?!

Agreed

I use threads like this to follow stories that aren't prominent in the news. This thread has made me question the value of that method.

 

[The Greater Fool]

You are right. It says "The terms and conditions for the new federal grazing permit allowed for livestock grazing with some restrictions to be determined by the BLM. For example,if tortoises were found to be active in the early spring in a specific area, then grazing would not be allowed until the amount of spring ephemeral forage had grown to a sufficient amount." as you posted. What were the restrictions? Was one 150? Is that what they determined? I saw that post by you. But absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. I would like to know if the restrictions that got Bundy so agitated, ie.. "BLM officials allege that Bundy became agitated, walked out of his truck and accused the BLM of harassing him." included a restriction to 150 head or not. The court document claims there were restrictions and even declares one example, but no list, nor any indication of what the BLM determined.

The bolded is obvious evidence that the BLM was moving to your Holistic approach. After all, such a provision in the contract would be necessary for the BLM to implement a responsive Holistic approach. You can present no evidence otherwise.

 

[eerok]

Nothing AT ALL that went before they decided to raise weapons against agents of the federal and state government matters any more.

And the big question is how the authorities will deal with this situation. They can't afford to let armed scofflaws run rampant even on land that no one wants very badly.

I have to admit that I'm impressed with the official restraint so far. They seem to really want no one to be harmed in this drama.

 

[Biscuit]

agreed And if there is a dispute over the contract and you wanted to continue service and not pay at the same time, there are ways like paying an escrow account etc that can be resolved once in court, just to be sure you don't get into even worse hot water. Bundy tried one of those ways, a very foolish one, by paying the county instead. They sent his check back.

The paying the county claim is another of many claims by bundy that has not been verified.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

He also went to court, again and again, and lost, again and again.

Any sane person would see this as an indication that are wrong. Bundy did not - draw your own conclusions from that.


And where does your fantasy take into account Bundy´s claims that his family actually owned the land in question to begin with?

It was a stupid legal defense. And what? When have I ever defended Bundy's foolish reactions? I actually hate the Militia and their idiotic stances on obscure things such as this. In fact I have a very personal reason for hating the militia, and several loosely related groups like the Christian Identity Movement etc... They recruited a good friend of mine and brainwashed him into a flaming arse who I had to actually legally fight at the courthouse (I won), nearly had to physically fight, and lost a good 10 year friendship. OK? So please stop trying to get me to defend those pricks. But I remember clearly how they got their hooks into my ex-friend. Outrage over Government heavy handedness in the Ruby Ridge incident. (I lived in Northern Idaho at the time) That whole thing caused a few crazies camping in the woods to grow to well over 1/2 the county. Part of the reason I left. A pretty good % of the population actually wanted to start a civil war. A real shooting civil war. I don't know what it is like there now, but back then it was so bad it made me sick. So first I got away from those people and a few months later I left the whole State. You may not understand what it is like to be minding your own business and have some crazy come out of the woods riding on a horse with a gun and start grilling you. I have first hand experience with these militia groups and it is not a pleasant experience.

So I am way more interested in what types of government actions cause these events than I am interested in defending the crazies. What pushed them over the edge? What pushed Bundy over the edge? What can be done to prevent pushing more over the edge. I can assure you that meeting force with force won't work. It has the opposite effect.

Now Bundy claims what got him fired up was the BLM dictating to him a 150 head stocking limit along with other restrictions, and ultimately now (due to his foolish handling of the original dispute) eliminating his ability to ranch that land at all. The Las Vegas Review-Journal seems to confirm this.

So as it turns out I know a little bit about Land Management. I do know that the type of things Bundy claims the BLM dictated to him are both deleterious to a ranching operation and also deleterious to the ecosystem of that rangeland. So if the BLM actually did dictate to Bundy that course of action with no other options, then I can easily see what pushed Bundy over the edge. Doesn't mean I agree at all with Bundy's actions since. He has handled it very wrong. That's clear. But tossing fuel to the fire doesn't help either.

So to me, at least in my opinion, the thing to do is go all the way back to the root of the problem. Which is poor land management. Then we can see if there is a way to improve that land for both the wildlife and the rancher. Then there is no reason for a fight, since good land management benefits everyone involved and the ecosystem, and the larger public simultaneously.

The paying the county claim is another of many claims by bundy that has not been verified.

Actually that is in the court documents.

On February 17, 1994, the BLM issued a final decision canceling Bundy's ephemeral range grazing permit. On March 3, 1994, Bundy sent a check for $1,961.47 to Clark County for grazing fees.

 

[Chaos]

Look Bundy claims it and the Las Vegas Review-Journal wrote it. I provided that evidence more than once. I asked for evidence that the report was false and Bundy was lying. The court documents say there are restrictions. The link provided doesn't contain the comprehensive list. So there is no way to tell from that link what all the restrictions were. That means the Las Vegas Review-Journal could be right...or wrong. No way to tell from that link.

And the bolded part means that what you provided is not evidence at all.

 

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>

So to me, at least in my opinion, the thing to do is go all the way back to the root of the problem. Which is poor land management. Then we can see if there is a way to improve that land for both the wildlife and the rancher. Then there is no reason for a fight, since good land management benefits everyone involved and the ecosystem, and the larger public simultaneously.

No. Just stop it, please. The guy's been breaking the law for over twenty years. That's all there is to it. We have no need to go back to the original dispute, as the only person in North America (perhaps the world) who thinks this was over differences in ideas about how to best manage the scrub country,.... is you. He has never offered any of your myriad arguments as his rationale.

He is a nutbag who thinks God talks to him and that the U.S. Government doesn't exist. He is a thief. He has stolen from his landlords (We, The People) and his State. He has taken an unfair advantage over other ranchers who pay their fees.

There is absolutely nothing to go back to. The U.S. Code is largely based on precedent. There is no way this should ever be re-opened for discussion as though nothing has happened since 1993.

 

[Chaos]

It was a stupid legal defense.

It was no legal defense at all. If I owe money to the bank, trying to pay the money to my hairdresser instead is not a legal defense.

And what? When have I ever defended Bundy's foolish reactions?

Sure you didn´t... you only spent dozens of posts, if not hundreds, telling us none of this was ever Bundy´s fault.

So I am way more interested in what types of government actions cause these events than I am interested in defending the crazies. What pushed them over the edge? What pushed Bundy over the edge? What can be done to prevent pushing more over the edge. I can assure you that meeting force with force won't work. It has the opposite effect.

What pushed Bundy over the edge was his own craziness - he believes he owns the land, contrary to all evidence. Your holistic land management thing is completely off-topic.

Now Bundy claims what got him fired up was the BLM dictating to him a 150 head stocking limit along with other restrictions, and ultimately now (due to his foolish handling of the original dispute) eliminating his ability to ranch that land at all.

Still doesn´t give him the right to claim the land as his family´s property, or leech roughly a million bucks´ worth of grazing off the taxpayers.

The Las Vegas Review-Journal seems to confirm this.

You yourself admitted that there is no way to tell from that if Bundy was right - so it does not "seem to confirm this".

So as it turns out I know a little bit about Land Management. I do know that the type of things Bundy claims the BLM dictated to him are both deleterious to a ranching operation and also deleterious to the ecosystem of that rangeland. So if the BLM actually did dictate to Bundy that course of action with no other options, then I can easily see what pushed Bundy over the edge. Doesn't mean I agree at all with Bundy's actions since. He has handled it very wrong. That's clear. But tossing fuel to the fire doesn't help either.

Yet you have no evidence at all that they dictated anything at all, and have been provided with plenty of evidence that he ALWAYS had other options. It was not the BLM´s fault that Bundy went nuts.

So to me, at least in my opinion, the thing to do is go all the way back to the root of the problem. Which is poor land management. Then we can see if there is a way to improve that land for both the wildlife and the rancher. Then there is no reason for a fight, since good land management benefits everyone involved and the ecosystem, and the larger public simultaneously.

The root of the problem is Bundy´s craziness, claiming against all evidence that the US government does not exist, claiming against all evidence that the land is owned by his family, effectively stealing a million dollars from the taxpayers, and threatening deadly force against anyone who tries to stop him.

There is EVERY reason for a fight, because letting behavior like this slide pisses on the millions of people who somehow manage to follow the law.

 

[Stamuel]

I have found another source for the claim that the BLM restricted Bundy to 150, if it matters. This is from a government official who had to deal with Bundy and his threats in the 90's:

I am familiar with the situation, as I served as superintendent of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area for the National Park Service from 1987 to 2000. In 1993, we reduced the number of cows that could be grazed on the Bunkerville allotment to 150 because of the emergency listing of the desert tortoise as an endangered species.

http://m.lvsun.com/news/2014/apr/06/rancher-land-dispute-bully-not-hero/

 

[desertgal]

It was a stupid legal defense. And what? When have I ever defended Bundy's foolish reactions?

"Bundy is wrong...but it isn't his fault. BLM backed him into a corner. BLM is 100% responsible for the current standoff." Sound familiar? You've said it all.

I actually hate the Militia and their idiotic stances on obscure things such as this. In fact I have a very personal reason for hating the militia, and several loosely related groups like the Christian Identity Movement etc... They recruited a good friend of mine and brainwashed him into a flaming arse who I had to actually legally fight at the courthouse (I won), nearly had to physically fight, and lost a good 10 year friendship. OK? So please stop trying to get me to defend those pricks. But I remember clearly how they got their hooks into my ex-friend. Outrage over Government heavy handedness in the Ruby Ridge incident. (I lived in Northern Idaho at the time) That whole thing caused a few crazies camping in the woods to grow to well over 1/2 the county. Part of the reason I left. A pretty good % of the population actually wanted to start a civil war. A real shooting civil war. I don't know what it is like there now, but back then it was so bad it made me sick. So first I got away from those people and a few months later I left the whole State. You may not understand what it is like to be minding your own business and have some crazy come out of the woods riding on a horse with a gun and start grilling you. I have first hand experience with these militia groups and it is not a pleasant experience.

Oh, so the current standoff...again...isn't Bundy's responsibility. The militia brainwashed him.

So I am way more interested in what types of government actions cause these events than I am interested in defending the crazies. What pushed them over the edge? What pushed Bundy over the edge? What can be done to prevent pushing more over the edge. I can assure you that meeting force with force won't work. It has the opposite effect.

"Bundy isn't responsible for his own actions. BLM pushed him over the edge."

Now Bundy claims what got him fired up was the BLM dictating to him a 150 head stocking limit along with other restrictions, and ultimately now (due to his foolish handling of the original dispute) eliminating his ability to ranch that land at all. The Las Vegas Review-Journal seems to confirm this.

"Bundy isn't responsible for his own actions. BLM backed him into a corner."

So as it turns out I know a little bit about Land Management. I do know that the type of things Bundy claims the BLM dictated to him are both deleterious to a ranching operation and also deleterious to the ecosystem of that rangeland. So if the BLM actually did dictate to Bundy that course of action with no other options, then I can easily see what pushed Bundy over the edge. Doesn't mean I agree at all with Bundy's actions since. He has handled it very wrong. That's clear. But tossing fuel to the fire doesn't help either.

"Bundy isn't responsible for his own actions. BLM pushed him over the edge."

So to me, at least in my opinion, the thing to do is go all the way back to the root of the problem. Which is poor land management. Then we can see if there is a way to improve that land for both the wildlife and the rancher. Then there is no reason for a fight, since good land management benefits everyone involved and the ecosystem, and the larger public simultaneously.

"Bundy isn't responsible for his own actions. BLM pushed him to it."

Actually that is in the court documents.

"Bundy isn't responsible for his own actions. BLM is 100% responsible for forcing Bundy to become so mentally unstable it was easy for the militia to brainwash him."

What's next? Are you going to tell us again that we all know you are right, but won't admit it?

Gawd, stop already.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

What's next? Are you going to tell us again that we all know you are right, but won't admit it?
.

RBF: "in your heart, you know I'm right."

JREF Forum Members: "in our guts, we know you're nuts."

 

[Biscuit]

RBF has been making a slow crawl from Holistic grazing to rest rotation to modern land management. It should be noted that these three terms are not synonymous and are not actually interchangeable.

 

[desertgal]

But since we are talking about The Western USA and Rangeland averaging 5 inches per year at the Bunker hill allotment that is being grazed by cattle, the two systems do overlap in this case.

But since we are talking about "The Western USA" and not Revolutionary War battlegrounds on the east coast, it's, so sorry, Bunkerville, not "Bunker hill".

 

[Red Baron Farms]

But since we are talking about "The Western USA" and not Revolutionary War battlegrounds on the east coast, it's, so sorry, Bunkerville, not "Bunker hill".

Sorry, didn't mean to offend the Natives. My bad.

 

[desertgal]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend the Natives. My bad.

I wasn't offended by that. Your enduring defense of Cliven Bundy, on the other hand, is pretty gross.

 

[halleyscomet]

My point was that as your arguments have been shot down one by one you have slowly moved away from your initial claim that the BLM should have offered HM. Start a thread on HM if that's what you want to talk about.

Start a thread on HM if that's what you want to talk about.

Start a thread on HM if that's what you want to talk about.

Start a thread on HM if that's what you want to talk about.

^THIS

 

[NoahFence]

^THIS

ditto.

 

[rwguinn]

^THIS

•10^6

 

[plague311]

WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!

As a rational person you could also acknowledge any of the massive amounts of evidence pointing to the fact that in this situation it was actually handled appropriately. He wasn't bullied, he was offered options, he was given a choice and he made that choice. I know you steadfastly refuse to believe it, but it's the truth. I'm sorry you can't grasp that.

 

[BenBurch]

So, tactics; I have been wondering at the best way to make the arrests. Perhaps the best way is to take them one at a time as they go into town for supplies?