Why isn't the guillotine used for executions?

[Lowpro]

I'm sorry but I never seen a clear argument why that is necessarily so by the anti-death penalty crowd. Sure, there's always the remote chance that an innocent person might get the needle or the chair but it's not like it's a sentence that is handed out lightly.

But what I want to really know is how is executing hardened, irredeemable killers and rapists any different from putting down a rabid dog? Do we really want to be keeping these wastes of space alive when their victims are dead or scared for life?

Too late for the victims first of all. For those scarred for life I'd suggest pointing them to agencies that can help them. Don't trot out the victims of the crime, that doesn't mean much (speaking firsthand if that matters). The victim(s) is/are already dead and the killer presumably is incarcerated so the death penalty does not act to control an immediate threat, it's only punitive at this point.

Execution does not promote the health and well being of the prisoner (does the opposite actually) whereas life imprisonment does (arguably, the state needs to guarantee this, many times it does not). Basically life imprisonment and a functioning agency to provide for the well being of those not incarcerated and those incarcerated "gels better" by abolishing the death penalty, or never using it. So in legal theory I argue the death penalty is antagonistic to the duties of the state.

That's in theory. In practice the death penalty is unquestionable in its inequity along with a lot of punitive sentencing including life imprisonment.

In short I don't think states should have the authority to kill in punitive judgment because the death penalty is antagonistic to other duties to promote the health and welfare of its citizens and because the capacity for lifetime imprisonment is feasible it is more sensible to defer to that instead of capital punishment. States do have the legal authority to carry out capital punishment though, and I would prefer they either abolished it or just didn't use it anymore. Preferably I would love for a legal case to be made that the death penalty is cruel and unusual considering the capacity for the state to instead incarcerate the prisoner instead. Capital punishment is putting dynamite to a gopher hole: unnecessary.

If it were not for precedence in cases using the Eighth Amendment I have little doubt that the death penalty would be abolished as cruel and unusual. I don't think that will ever happen in my lifetime though.

Mudcat, that is all I am going to say on it since this is off-topic from the thread and I honestly don't care to debate you on it. I think we have a fundamental difference in our views far beyond the legal ethics.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

I'm sorry but I never seen a clear argument why that is necessarily so by the anti-death penalty crowd. Sure, there's always the remote chance that an innocent person might get the needle or the chair but it's not like it's a sentence that is handed out lightly.

But what I want to really know is how is executing hardened, irredeemable killers and rapists any different from putting down a rabid dog? Do we really want to be keeping these wastes of space alive when their victims are dead or scared for life?

So to the question of the thread, why isn't the guillotine used?

 

[BardKesnit]

viable alternatives (yes lethal injection is viable even though it has a failure rate,

Lethal injection wins I suppose because it has protocols to maximize the success while minimize pain and I suspect "gory stuff no one likes to think about." Lethal injection has anesthesiologists and care givers which carry all that out (as protocol: in reality it's not easy to do it 100% of the time).

The problem with lethal injection is that the protocols are quickly going out the window. For years, a three-drug cocktail was given, starting with a drug (IIRC, sodium pentathiol) to knock the prisoner unconscious, then a paralytic (to stop breathing and keep the prisoner from thrashing if there is pain) and potassium chloride to stop the heart.

The problem came when the maker of the first drug moved production to Europe, then refused to sell the drug in the US if it would be used for lethal injection. States scrambled to find a new source and couldn't. So they are having to "fake it" and find a new way to render the condemned unconscious. It isn't working very well...

Regarding anesthesiologists, a board-certified anesthesiologist posted in a previous death penalty thread and said he could lose his medical license if he, in any way, participated in an execution. (I assume he could be a witness in the galley, but that would be it.)

I'm sorry but I never seen a clear argument why that is necessarily so by the anti-death penalty crowd. Sure, there's always the remote chance that an innocent person might get the needle or the chair but it's not like it's a sentence that is handed out lightly.

The final straw in my support for the death penalty was when I learned it is more expensive to execute a prisoner than it is to keep them in prison for the rest of their life. The costs come from the long (and necessary, IMO) appeals requirement that comes automatically with the death penalty, but not with life-without-parole.

But what I want to really know is how is executing hardened, irredeemable killers and rapists any different from putting down a rabid dog?

1) As far as I know, rape alone is not sufficient for a death sentence. There has to be a murder in order to trigger death eligibility. (I could be wrong on that.)

2) Although the death penalty is supposed to only be used in the most extreme cases, the decision to go for death is in the hands of the prosecutor and can be sought in any eligible case. (Shoot a store clerk in a robbery? Death eligible.)

When I was in law school, I saw two different approaches to the death penalty. The State Attorney where my school was located was a gung-ho proponent of capital punishment, and since she took office in 2009, has accounted for 25% of Florida's sentences of death. I interned in a neighboring county with a different State Attorney and saw a very different approach. If one of his prosecutors wanted to bring a death sentence (which didn't happen in the 12 months I interned), they had to give a detailed presentation to the State Attorney explaining why this crime was so horrible as to warrant death. Even then, he was unlikely to give his approval.

In the end, it is still the jury who has to decide death or life. But when the option of death can come down to which side of the county line* you were on...



* To clarify, Florida's State Attorneys oversee several counties. Angela Corey had 3, but one of those includes the city of Jacksonville. The SA I worked for had 6 counties, though most of those are rural. Their jurisdictions share a long border.

 

[catsmate]

Painless, very cheap and without the complications of someone being injected with a cocktail of drugs that can have the side effect of torturing that person to death.

USAians are too squeamish.

I understand the Germans used the thing right up to the Second World War. Thiers was, as you might expect, very "engineered" with a nice receptacle for the removed bits and all...Very efficient:

http://boisdejustice.com/Links/Pancraz.JPG

Ah, Germanic efficency.

Looking into the matter a bit more, what an absolute disgrace that Lavoisier was executed.

Yeah a serious loss to science. Without him and his nitrates work, the French would have found it far more difficult to engage in war or support those rebellious tobacco colonists.

<snip>

So, he ventured, that the most humane way would be to tell the condemned they're going to do something nice, so they're unsuspecting, and then give a gunshot to the back of the head.

Gas them in their sleep.

The Nazis... I know I just Godwined the thread, but the Nazis used it as a demeaning form of execution and racked up quite the body count using the guillotine, so that is probably why it isn't used in most places any more.

Isn't it more associated with France?

Not old age?

 

[Lowpro]

The problem with lethal injection is that the protocols are quickly going out the window. For years, a three-drug cocktail was given, starting with a drug (IIRC, sodium pentathiol) to knock the prisoner unconscious, then a paralytic (to stop breathing and keep the prisoner from thrashing if there is pain) and potassium chloride to stop the heart.

The problem came when the maker of the first drug moved production to Europe, then refused to sell the drug in the US if it would be used for lethal injection. States scrambled to find a new source and couldn't. So they are having to "fake it" and find a new way to render the condemned unconscious. It isn't working very well...

Regarding anesthesiologists, a board-certified anesthesiologist posted in a previous death penalty thread and said he could lose his medical license if he, in any way, participated in an execution. (I assume he could be a witness in the galley, but that would be it.)

Yea I know that there's an immediate scramble to modify the regimen with new chemicals. I mentioned earlier about bringing back a gas-chamber using carbon monoxide (or the classic Nitrogen) and I was semi-serious.

As far as the anesthesiologist goes, I'm pretty sure the AMA has taken a stance against any practicing physicians performing for capital punishment but I figured that there must be someone who quantifies and administers the dosage, preps the inmate etc etc. Did not know that you could lose your license though. I wonder who does all that if not a physician of some kind.

 

[banquetbear]

I wonder how the news would handle an executioner holding up a severed head where the eyes were still looking around, obviously not yet dead.

...the body can still keep on living, even to the point of delivering a baby, if the correct breathing method is practiced and adopted.

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

If you were the condemned prisoner, and they offered you any method of death of your choice, what would it be?

I agree with Tyrion Lannister's choice. "In my own bed, at the age of 80 with a belly full of wine and a girl's mouth around my ****."

 

[Border Reiver]

So to the question of the thread, why isn't the guillotine used?

Tradition.

Same reason miltary dress uniforms look like great -grandad's suit.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I submit "in glorious battle against my foes" instead.

This, so much this.

Especially since my great nemesis at the moment is an unruly Pekingese. The battle would be EPIC!!!!

 

[lobosrul]

Quick and painless, but messy:

I stumbled upon that wiki article some time ago. It was used mainly to make a gruesome spectacle to dissuade soldiers (usually Indian soldiers) to not mutiny or desert. It was however quite hazardous for the executioner. And also probably left one hell of a mess. Also, not always quick and painless:

One wretched fellow slipped from the rope by which he was tied to the guns just before the explosion, and his arm was nearly set on fire. While hanging in his agony under the gun, a sergeant applied a pistol to his head; and three times the cap snapped, the man each time wincing from the expected shot. At last a rifle was fired into the back of his head, and the blood poured out of the nose and mouth like water from a briskly handled pump. This was the most horrible sight of all. I have seen death in all its forms, but never anything to equal this man's end.

Which leads me to suggest: why not use C4 explosives? Put a large amount around the condemned persons head and death would be absolutely instantaneous, and there would be nothing left to bury.

 

[ddt]

The problem came when the maker of the first drug moved production to Europe, then refused to sell the drug in the US if it would be used for lethal injection. States scrambled to find a new source and couldn't. So they are having to "fake it" and find a new way to render the condemned unconscious. It isn't working very well...

Italy - the country where the plant was relocated - would not give an export licence to the US unless the manufacturer could absolutely, dead certain, 100% guarantee that none of the sodium pentothal would end up in prisons for use in executions. They couldn't, and therefore they didn't get the export licence. There are other plants in other European countries that produce sodium pentothal and face the same.

Because of the (possible) use for the death penalty, American thus also suffer that they can't get sodiun pentothal for medical uses.

 

[I Ratant]

It's the amount of blood spilled, it makes it gruesome. However, I have a solution. Heat up the blade so that it cauterizes the neck after the slice and have a mechanism to hold the head in place so it doesn't roll off after the blade drops....

.
Films of guillotining show how quickly the process occurs... the blade drops, the head falls into the basket, the body is pushed into the coffin. Just a couple seconds.

 

[I Ratant]

I'm sorry but I never seen a clear argument why that is necessarily so by the anti-death penalty crowd. Sure, there's always the remote chance that an innocent person might get the needle or the chair but it's not like it's a sentence that is handed out lightly.

But what I want to really know is how is executing hardened, irredeemable killers and rapists any different from putting down a rabid dog? Do we really want to be keeping these wastes of space alive when their victims are dead or scared for life?

.
Look up the modern day stonings... still occur! Videos!

 

[I Ratant]

...



1) As far as I know, rape alone is not sufficient for a death sentence. There has to be a murder in order to trigger death eligibility. (I could be wrong on that.)

...

.
In looking at stonings, I encountered one of the most recent, where a young lady was raped, complained about it, and was stoned to death!

 

[tsig]

So to the question of the thread, why isn't the guillotine used?

Beheading people has gone out of fashion.

 

[I Ratant]

...
Which leads me to suggest: why not use C4 explosives? Put a large amount around the condemned persons head and death would be absolutely instantaneous, and there would be nothing left to bury.

.
Premature ignition of the charge, or a hang-fire.. wanna check out one of those?
.
The headless body has to be buried, and the amount of tissue/blood in the surrounding area....??

 

[I Ratant]

Italy - the country where the plant was relocated - would not give an export licence to the US unless the manufacturer could absolutely, dead certain, 100% guarantee that none of the sodium pentothal would end up in prisons for use in executions. They couldn't, and therefore they didn't get the export licence. There are other plants in other European countries that produce sodium pentothal and face the same.

Because of the (possible) use for the death penalty, American thus also suffer that they can't get sodiun pentothal for medical uses.

.
Whatever the anesthesiologist used on me was really effective.. 1997.
He came into the room, said "I'll be your anesthesiologist".. and blotto.. woke up 3 hours later with a hip to ankle cast on the right leg. And NO memory/feeling for the intervening time.

 

[jimbob]

I'm sorry but I never seen a clear argument why that is necessarily so by the anti-death penalty crowd. Sure, there's always the remote chance that an innocent person might get the needle or the chair but it's not like it's a sentence that is handed out lightly.

But what I want to really know is how is executing hardened, irredeemable killers and rapists any different from putting down a rabid dog? Do we really want to be keeping these wastes of space alive when their victims are dead or scared for life?

It looks closer to 1 in 20 in the US.

 

[lobosrul]

.
Premature ignition of the charge, or a hang-fire.. wanna check out one of those?
.
The headless body has to be buried, and the amount of tissue/blood in the surrounding area....??

If its a big enough explosion the blood will be vaporized and any tissue will be microscopic.

 

[BardKesnit]

In looking at stonings, I encountered one of the most recent, where a young lady was raped, complained about it, and was stoned to death!

My bad. I was referring to the death penalty in the US. I should have been more specific.