Why isn't the guillotine used for executions?

[Undesired Walrus]

Painless, very cheap and without the complications of someone being injected with a cocktail of drugs that can have the side effect of torturing that person to death.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Unsightly.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Hasn't been declared safe for human use by the FDA.

 

[Bikewer]

I understand the Germans used the thing right up to the Second World War. Thiers was, as you might expect, very "engineered" with a nice receptacle for the removed bits and all...Very efficient:

http://boisdejustice.com/Links/Pancraz.JPG

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I understand the Germans used the thing right up to the Second World War. Thiers was, as you might expect, very "engineered" with a nice receptacle for the removed bits and all...Very efficient:

http://boisdejustice.com/Links/Pancraz.JPG

Thread on this at Axis History Forums.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Unsightly.

This.

The few more modern countries left that still use capital punishment have a weird fetish for executions that aren't visually or thematic unpleasent.

Leaving aside the whole capital punishment debate if we really cared about executions being quick and painless for the person being executed we could easily do it. Any action that completely destroyed the brain would leave literally no possible way for the person to feel anything. But anyway to do that would look violent and messy and we don't like that.

I think that's why lethal injection is so popular in the US despite the controversy around it. It looks so... clean. No blood, no bullet holes, no snapping neck, no gasping for air, no smoking jerking body. Whether or not it is any more cruel for the person being executed is not the point, not matter how much we like to pretend it is. We like it because it doesn't look messy. We've all got an IV. We've all fallen asleep. And that's the visual we have to deal with when we do it that way.

TL;DR version, because we're more concerned about bad the executions look instead of how bad they actually are.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I wonder how the news would handle an executioner holding up a severed head where the eyes were still looking around, obviously not yet dead.

 

[angrysoba]

I understand the Germans used the thing right up to the Second World War. Thiers was, as you might expect, very "engineered" with a nice receptacle for the removed bits and all...Very efficient:

http://boisdejustice.com/Links/Pancraz.JPG

Yeah, but those guillotines were obviously not big enough to decapitate anyone. Look at how it is being held in someone's hand; it's tiny!


But seriously, yes the Germans used this method on people like Marinus Van der Lubbe in the run-up to the war, but also during the war as well. And, according to Wiki, in East Germany after the war.

And of course, it was still used in France until 1977, apparently! (Still on the books until 1981!)

And apparently the stories of people moving their eyes and faces around after decapitation are probably imaginary.

 

[Ryokan]

Yeah, but those guillotines were obviously not big enough to decapitate anyone. Look at how it is being held in someone's hand; it's tiny!

It's used for a different head.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I wonder how the news would handle an executioner holding up a severed head where the eyes were still looking around, obviously not yet dead.

And apparently the stories of people moving their eyes and faces around after decapitation are probably imaginary.

The question as to what, if any, length of consciousness a severed head had after decapation was actually a really deal back when the French were using the guillotine a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine#Living_heads
http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/thefrenchrevolution/a/dyk10.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/lucid-decapitation2.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-brain-myths6.htm

My own best, totally layman, guess... probably not. Even if enough bloodflow lasted in the brain to substain neural activity for a few brief seconds and somehow managed to maintain itself against the almost total and instant drop in blood pressure (and that's a big, big if) I can't imagine that the massive shock of the decapitation didn't over-ride it all.

 

[angrysoba]

It's used for a different head.

Now that's cruel and unusual!

 

[timhau]

My own best, totally layman, guess... probably not. Even if enough bloodflow lasted in the brain to substain neural activity for a few brief seconds and somehow managed to maintain itself against the almost total and instant drop in blood pressure (and that's a big, big if) I can't imagine that the massive shock of the decapitation didn't over-ride it all.

What's more, who's to say that it couldn't be a pleasant experience?

"Oh Jeebus, my hemorrhoids are killing me. Oh there now, that's bett--"

 

[angrysoba]

The question as to what, if any, length of consciousness a severed head had after decapation was actually a really deal back when the French were using the guillotine a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine#Living_heads
http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/thefrenchrevolution/a/dyk10.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/lucid-decapitation2.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-brain-myths6.htm

My own best, totally layman, guess... probably not. Even if enough bloodflow lasted in the brain to substain neural activity for a few brief seconds and somehow managed to maintain itself against the almost total and instant drop in blood pressure (and that's a big, big if) I can't imagine that the massive shock of the decapitation didn't over-ride it all.

I remember hearing one story that a very scientifically-minded condemned man said that he would keep blinking his eyes throughout the execution allowing observers to get some idea of how long a head stays alive after decapitation.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

This.

The few more modern countries left that still use capital punishment have a weird fetish for executions that aren't visually or thematic unpleasent.

Leaving aside the whole capital punishment debate if we really cared about executions being quick and painless for the person being executed we could easily do it. Any action that completely destroyed the brain would leave literally no possible way for the person to feel anything. But anyway to do that would look violent and messy and we don't like that.

I think that's why lethal injection is so popular in the US despite the controversy around it. It looks so... clean. No blood, no bullet holes, no snapping neck, no gasping for air, no smoking jerking body. Whether or not it is any more cruel for the person being executed is not the point, not matter how much we like to pretend it is. We like it because it doesn't look messy. We've all got an IV. We've all fallen asleep. And that's the visual we have to deal with when we do it that way.

TL;DR version, because we're more concerned about bad the executions look instead of how bad they actually are.

So it's fairly perculiar that death penalty proponents find the slow torture resulting from botched lethal injections as no big issue, as it is deemed that the prisoner was so evil they deserve a bit of pain. Perculiar as presumably they would not care about a more messy form of execution like the guillotine or being hang drawn and quartered. But they do. Is it possible that for all their talk, they feel slightly ashamed of the practice, wishing to mask it behind something clean like lethal injections?

 

[angrysoba]

So it's fairly perculiar that death penalty proponents find the slow torture resulting from botched lethal injections as no big issue, as it is deemed that the prisoner was so evil they deserve a bit of pain. Perculiar as presumably they would not care about a more messy form of execution like the guillotine or being hang drawn and quartered. But they do. Is it possible that for all their talk, they feel slightly ashamed of the practice, wishing to mask it behind something clean like lethal injections?

Not sure about that. Presumably "they" may have a number of different motives and opinions on the practice. In fact, we know that "they" do given that there are a number of forms of execution in the US. I think hanging is still an option, as is the electric chair and gas chamber - both of which are often considered a by-word for horror in Europe for different reasons. On top of that, there was an execution last year or the year before which caused something of a stir, which was by firing squad.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I remember hearing one story that a very scientifically-minded condemned man said that he would keep blinking his eyes throughout the execution allowing observers to get some idea of how long a head stays alive after decapitation.

Ah yes that would be the story of Antoine Lavoisier, a French chemist and nobleman condemned to the guillotine during the Terror.

Is it possible that for all their talk, they feel slightly ashamed of the practice, wishing to mask it behind something clean like lethal injections?

Obviously I don't want to generalize everyone that holds that opinion and I'm sure motivation and such random, but I'm sure it is a factor for a lot of people yes.

We've sterilized capital punishment to make it as pleasent on us as possible. Whether or that is a good thing is a matter of opinion. And of course all of this is seperate from the overall debate on capital punishment.

 

[Ladewig]

It is too French for American tastes.

 

[ddt]

It's used for a different head.

Now that's cruel and unusual!

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, but those guillotines were obviously not big enough to decapitate anyone. Look at how it is being held in someone's hand; it's tiny!


But seriously, yes the Germans used this method on people like Marinus Van der Lubbe in the run-up to the war, but also during the war as well. And, according to Wiki, in East Germany after the war.

And of course, it was still used in France until 1977, apparently! (Still on the books until 1981!)

And apparently the stories of people moving their eyes and faces around after decapitation are probably imaginary.

Or just nerve impulses like decapitated chickens running around.

 

[angrysoba]

Ah yes that would be the story of Antoine Lavoisier, a French chemist and nobleman condemned to the guillotine during the Terror.

Hmmm... the book that I remember the incident being written in was Does Anything Eat Wasps? which was a collection of letters to New Scientist. I tried to find my copy but realized that I may have given it to a second-hand bookshop as it wasn't as interesting as I had hoped it would be and I thought I would never ever need to read it again.

So, I looked it up and it seems to be apocryphal.

Looking into the matter a bit more, what an absolute disgrace that Lavoisier was executed.