Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[carbonjam72]

Of course they are. Even OJ had a cut on his fingers. I've cut my hands lots of times but still it would be very very small minority that I would have a cut on my fingers. This is the point that so many people are willing to ignore.

1. Rudy's shoe prints in Meredith's blood.
2. Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood.
3. Rudy's DNA in a bedroom that he has NO HISTORY of ever being in.
4. Rudy's DNA inside the vagina of a woman that no one has ever seen him with alone with and who is in a relationship with another man.
5. Rudy' DNA inside the purse of Meredith.
6. Rudy's fantastic and very unbelievable stories.
7. Cuts on Rudy's hands indicative of someone wielding a knife.
8. Rudy fleeing Italy.
9. The lack of identifiable shoe prints to anyone else in that bedroom other than the victim.
10. Rudy's ties to other burglaries including another second story burglary.

While it is possible that Rudy had an accomplice who was there in that bedroom killing Meredith, there is no evidence that really suggests it. If Rudy had an accomplice, you would think that there would be another obvious shoe print from someone else in Rudy's blood. There isn't.

From my perspective there is more than enough evidence that Rudy killed Meredith ALONE in the act of committing ANOTHER burglary.

uh, yup.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Hi All,
I took a closer look at the CCTV imagery, and I believe the CCTV footage is not "unusable", rather, it can be clearly be shown to be not Amanda Knox.
I did a frame count of the CCTV images available in the above link, and what I found is that the image used by SKY TV is a side-view shot, which tends to conceal a person's girth. The selection of this frame by SKY TV is intentionally deceptive.

An earlier frame of the CCTV has more of a frontal shot, although from a greater distance. While facial detail are blurred, the body type is perfectly clear (IMO). The lady is clearly obese. And in this frame, it's obvious that its not Amanda.

The frame chosen by SKY TV to emphasize shows a desire to create controversy, where none legitimately exists, and its obviously for the purpose of generating sales of their news product. I wonder if this is pointed out to them, will they have the decency and integrity to call out the Italian TV program to withdraw their claim, and admit its not Amanda? I doubt it, but who knows?

I count 9 distinct frame images, here are the time codes below: all begin with 20.53., so I'll only include "seconds.hundredths"

CCTV frames:
1 - .46.11
2 - .46.96
3 - .47.01
4 - .48.59 (best frame for frontal view and comparison to Amanda Knox body type)
5 - .49.36
6 - .50.71
7 - .51.18
8 - .51.47
9 - .51.77 (frame used by SKY TV, for comparison & close up)

Below is the full shot and close up of .48.59 (frame 4 in the sky news clip). I think its the best for size and frontal shot view, to see the best view of this woman's body type. Does anyone think this looks like Amanda? (Lower shot is SKY TV close up of frame showing lady in sideview).




[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/67903536e8e89d4ed4.png[/qimg]



[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_67903536e8f1d773f3.jpg[/qimg]

Maybe it’s me as I am always off message. However, if the prosecution thought the person in the CCTV was Amanda they would have used the footage in the 1st level trial? Don’t understand the fuss, it’s not like it’s going to have any influence on Raffaele and Amanda Italian Supreme Court appeal.

 

[carbonjam72]

Public Opinion Matters

Maybe it’s me as I am always off message. However, if the prosecution thought the person in the CCTV was Amanda they would have used the footage in the 1st level trial? Don’t understand the fuss, it’s not like it’s going to have any influence on Raffaele and Amanda Italian Supreme Court appeal.

Hey Couldson,

The reason it was put on TV was to get ratings, and it dishonestly encourages people to believe that Amanda and Raf are guilty.

This clip that is purported to 'challenge' Amanda's alibi does no such thing. It's laughably fraudulent.

Instead of raising a question in the public's mind as to whether Amanda's alibi has 'been undone', it should instead raise questions as to the integrity and intentions, and indeed the potentially criminal conduct of those behind it, in disseminating intentionally false information.

Two innocent people spent 4 years in prison for crimes they did not, could not, and would never commit. And the irresponsibility and unaccountability of both the Italian media and the prosecutor's office are a big part of the reason why.

That's why it matters. You may of course feel differently.

 

[Diocletus]

Maybe it’s me as I am always off message. However, if the prosecution thought the person in the CCTV was Amanda they would have used the footage in the 1st level trial? Don’t understand the fuss, it’s not like it’s going to have any influence on Raffaele and Amanda Italian Supreme Court appeal.

Well, I don't know. They must have thought it was Amanda, otherwise they would have investigated who the person was since she and Kercher passed about 1 minute apart. Don't you think they would have done that?

Is there any reason you can think of why they would (1) not use the footage, and (2) not investigate who the person is, if not Knox?

 

[codyjuneau]

Hi Cody, the forensic experts I've read, Steve Moore, John Douglas, (& others I think) are all in agreement that knife killers often have cuts across their own hands (fingers) where the knife slips during a bloody assault. Rudy's cuts are totally consistent with this phenomena. So the idea of Meredith having a knife doesn't help explain anything, and is contrary to the expectation of what the cuts on Rudy's hand would normally be interpreted as being by experienced professionals. So, personally, I don't buy Meredith was holding a knife.

Any Clean-up of blood would have been revealed by luminol as cloudy swirls on the floor, and it wasn't. There was no "clean-up", at least of blood on the floor. He could have set chairs upright though, I guess, and makes sense he would make a quick effort at it.

(By the way, are you from the great state of AK?)

.
I have more than one theory, but this is my favorite. If you substitute the 'unknown stranger' with Meredith then his self serving story fits the scenario pretty well. Rudy comes out of the bathroom with his pants half up, the 'stranger' is there with a knife, he approaches the 'stranger', tries to ward off the knife and gets cut, he then uses a chair to fend off the 'stranger'.

There is evidence the drying rack was knocked over and then righted again. There is also footprint evidence that he did something in that area. Most importantly, for me, it explains the rage and brutality better than any other scenario.

I can imagine Rudy coming out of the bathroom, coming closer to Meredith while starting to make up some lie to explain why he is there. Meredith, terrified, terrified, tries to keep him away by threatening with a knife, he reaches out, he may not even realize she has a knife, and gets cut, which triggers the rage. A sort of temporary insanity rage, a primordial reaction. Meredith runs to her bedroom to escape, hoping to lock it in time, but can't. How else does one explain the brutality? How?

Not AK, Canada, aka 'The Great White North'.

Cody (aka Codi)
.

 

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
Maybe it’s me as I am always off message. However, if the prosecution thought the person in the CCTV was Amanda they would have used the footage in the 1st level trial? Don’t understand the fuss, it’s not like it’s going to have any influence on Raffaele and Amanda Italian Supreme Court appeal.

Well, I don't know. They must have thought it was Amanda, otherwise they would have investigated who the person was since she and Kercher passed about 1 minute apart. Don't you think they would have done that?

Is there any reason you can think of why they would (1) not use the footage, and (2) not investigate who the person is, if not Knox?

Of course they investigated it. What did they find out or determine? That while it might be similar, nothing about it really points to this person being involved in the crime and it contradicts with the none whereabouts of Amanda Knox 10 to 18 minutes earlier.

Coulsdon is right, if it really had a bearing on this case the prosecution would have argued that this was Amanda. But it wasn't. Thank you Coulsdon. Everyone move on.

 

[Desert Fox]

Question about sources
We usually accept Steve Moore as an authority due to his FBI background.
Still, I doubt we feel the same about Ted Gunderson (almost picked as the head of the FBI) who argued that 1993 World Trade Center Bombing were a result of FBI agent provocateur and warned about the proliferation of secret Satanic groups.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Hey Couldson,

The reason it was put on TV was to get ratings, and it dishonestly encourages people to believe that Amanda and Raf are guilty.

This clip that is purported to 'challenge' Amanda's alibi does no such thing. It's laughably fraudulent.

Don’t think it is fraudulent, it’s just not Amanda.

Instead of raising a question in the public's mind as to whether Amanda's alibi has 'been undone', it should instead raise questions as to the integrity and intentions, and indeed the potentially criminal conduct of those behind it, in disseminating intentionally false information.

Two innocent people spent 4 years in prison for crimes they did not, could not, and would never commit. And the irresponsibility and unaccountability of both the Italian media and the prosecutor's office are a big part of the reason why.

That's why it matters. You may of course feel differently.

The thing is though the only public opinion that is relevant now is American public opinion and that is assuming, Raffaele and Amanda lose their appeal and Italian judiciary request Amanda’s extradition, you see by then the following would have happened to Raffaele:

Raffaele goes on the run.​

Raffaele is arrested and imprisoned.​

This fuss will have no bearing whatsoever on the Italian Supreme Court verdict.

 

[Diocletus]

Of course they investigated it.

Oh really? So who is it?

They didn't investigate it because it could have screwed up the lie they were planning to tell about the 112 calls.

 

[acbytesla]

Don’t think it is fraudulent, it’s just not Amanda.



The thing is though the only public opinion that is relevant now is American public opinion and that is assuming, Raffaele and Amanda lose their appeal and Italian judiciary request Amanda’s extradition, you see by then the following would have happened to Raffaele:

Raffaele goes on the run.​

Raffaele is arrested and imprisoned.​

This fuss will have no bearing whatsoever on the Italian Supreme Court verdict.

This is where I disagree with you Coulsdon. It is not the image that is fraudulent but the stories in the media. They are misleading. Also, public opinion is important. It is important in Italy and it is important in the US. Not as much in the UK..although it is important there too.

If the majority of Italians woke up tomorrow and expressed extreme reservations about the verdict, it is likely to make a significant difference. In fact, it is the limited media in Italy that is probably a cause why the public in Italy thinks Amanda and Raffaele had something to do with the murder. I guarantee you that public opinion has an effect on public officials, even judges. Many of us would like to think that it doesn't. But it does.

The evidence in this case does not prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt the two kids' guilt. Maybe I can see how people might think they "might be guilty" but I can't see how anyone really thinks there isn't enough contradicting evidence that would constitute "reasonable doubt".

I've seen cases in the US where people have been convicted actually on as little as what has convicted A&K in Italy. Check out the Russ Faria case in Missouri. Many of the actual jurors in that case are questioning their own verdict and have asked that it be set aside.

But somehow, these people convicted him. Some of the jurors in the Nencini jury had to be persuaded by Nencini to vote to convict Amanda and Raffaele even though they didn't think there was enough evidence. This reminds me of the social experiment where people were told by someone of authority to give an electric shock to a subject and they did it. They did it because of the nature to bend to authority.

While this doesn't compare to NAZI Germany, the same phenomenon took place there.

 

[acbytesla]

Oh really? So who is it?

They didn't investigate it because it could have screwed up the lie they were planning to tell about the 112 calls.

That doesn't mean they identified who it is. I think they investigated it to the point of declaring it wasn't Amanda.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

This is where I disagree with you Coulsdon. It is not the image that is fraudulent but the stories in the media. They are misleading. Also, public opinion is important. It is important in Italy and it is important in the US. Not as much in the UK..although it is important there too.

At this stage of proceedings, American or Italian public opinion will have no bearing on the Italian Supreme Court ruling, as I said American public opinion is important if Amanda loses her final appeal and Italian judiciary request extradition.

If the majority of Italians woke up tomorrow and expressed extreme reservations about the verdict, it is likely to make a significant difference. In fact, it is the limited media in Italy that is probably a cause why the public in Italy thinks Amanda and Raffaele had something to do with the murder. I guarantee you that public opinion has an effect on public officials, even judges. Many of us would like to think that it doesn't. But it does.

The Italian public remain somewhat muted or indifferent to Raffaele’s plight. I accept that American public opinion can and does influence public officials, but that Italian judiciary are independent of their government and Italian public opinion.

The evidence in this case does not prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt the two kids' guilt. Maybe I can see how people might think they "might be guilty" but I can't see how anyone really thinks there isn't enough contradicting evidence that would constitute "reasonable doubt".

At this stage of the case it will be down to how the Italian Supreme Court interpret the Perugia and Florence motivations against the strength of Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal.

I've seen cases in the US where people have been convicted actually on as little as what has convicted A&K in Italy. Check out the Russ Faria case in Missouri. Many of the actual jurors in that case are questioning their own verdict and have asked that it be set aside. <snip>

Yes of course this matters only to American public opinion, but that will only become relevant if Raffaele and Amanda lose their appeal and the Italian judiciary request extradition.

I am not aware of any ground swell of Italian public opinion in support of Raffaele.

 

[carbonjam72]

Media picked up the story and ran with it -

This is where I disagree with you Coulsdon. It is not the image that is fraudulent but the stories in the media. They are misleading. Also, public opinion is important. It is important in Italy and it is important in the US. Not as much in the UK..although it is important there too.

If the majority of Italians woke up tomorrow and expressed extreme reservations about the verdict, it is likely to make a significant difference. In fact, it is the limited media in Italy that is probably a cause why the public in Italy thinks Amanda and Raffaele had something to do with the murder. I guarantee you that public opinion has an effect on public officials, even judges. Many of us would like to think that it doesn't. But it does.

The evidence in this case does not prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt the two kids' guilt. Maybe I can see how people might think they "might be guilty" but I can't see how anyone really thinks there isn't enough contradicting evidence that would constitute "reasonable doubt".

I've seen cases in the US where people have been convicted actually on as little as what has convicted A&K in Italy. Check out the Russ Faria case in Missouri. Many of the actual jurors in that case are questioning their own verdict and have asked that it be set aside.

But somehow, these people convicted him. Some of the jurors in the Nencini jury had to be persuaded by Nencini to vote to convict Amanda and Raffaele even though they didn't think there was enough evidence. This reminds me of the social experiment where people were told by someone of authority to give an electric shock to a subject and they did it. They did it because of the nature to bend to authority.

While this doesn't compare to NAZI Germany, the same phenomenon took place there.

Seems like a lot of media covered it, major media in the US and quite uncritically. And it is completely phony to suggest it's Amanda.

The choice of a side-view frame is intentionally misleading. A portion of the public that is exposed to these lies simply buys it. Not all, but a dependable potion.

It's intended to influence the outcome in Italy, and any possible process after that.

It is exactly the same tactic that was used to make it impossible to get a fair trial in Italy at the first level, and they spent 4 years in prison to get it resolved.

It seems awfully cavalier about stealing the lives of the innocent so a corrupt prosecutor can distract the public from his own abuses of office.

If a private citizen had kidnapped two bystanders, held them in a caged environment for 4 years, knowing there was no good reason for them to be there, such a private citizen could expect to spend the rest of their life in prison in any country - the very sentence MIgnini and other prosecutors asked for against Amanda and Raf.

It's not a cricket match. It matters.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Well, I don't know. They must have thought it was Amanda, otherwise they would have investigated who the person was since she and Kercher passed about 1 minute apart. Don't you think they would have done that? <snip>

For me it is pretty simple, if the prosecution thought it was Amanda they would have used it, therefore, given their obvious conclusion why would they investigate? Indeed, if for example Meredith and this person where seen in the same CCTV footage passing each other they may have tried to track her down, but that is clearly not the case.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Seems like a lot of media covered it, major media in the US and quite uncritically. And it is completely phony to suggest it's Amanda.

The choice of a side-view frame is intentionally misleading. A portion of the public that is exposed to these lies simply buys it. Not all, but a dependable potion.

Are you sure, kind of looks like the same camera angle that showed Guede, I assumed it was in a fixed position.

It's intended to influence the outcome in Italy, and any possible process after that. <snip>

The above is an assertion with no supporting citation and assumes a final guilty verdict and the loss of an appeal to ECHR.

This footage was not used in any of the former judicial phases of this case, it does not appear in the Perugia or Florence motivations, as far as I know it is not part of any evidence submitted.

 

[Dan O.]

Great post! Are these from IIP? The details of the chase, substantiated by real details of the crime scene, smacks of Rudy rewriting his crime to fit the evidence he knows is there, because he was there (a la Anglo).

Meredith's door was locked from the inside when they discovered her, so we know it locks. Trying to lock herself in her bedroom and call for help would have been a heads-up survival strategy, if she had been confronted and chased through the house by Rudy, knowing there's a problem with the front door lock. Makes me think Meredith almost survived, if she could only have locked Guede out of her bedroom, and called for help on her cell phone.

Another sad realization, but I really think this moves the narrative further along - in the micro sense.

The crime scene details and Rudy's statements are from many sources, some older than IIP.

Meredith's door was not locked from the inside. That was misinformation that somehow got out to the press. The door has a deadbolt type lock so it cannot even be locked and then closed.

 

[carbonjam72]

Influence in Italian courts

Are you sure, kind of looks like the same camera angle that showed Guede, I assumed it was in a fixed position.



The above is an assertion with no supporting citation and assumes a final guilty verdict and the loss of an appeal to ECHR.

This footage was not used in any of the former judicial phases of this case, it does not appear in the Perugia or Florence motivations, as far as I know it is not part of any evidence submitted.

The camera angle in this instance, conceals the rotund features of the mystery woman. Are you for real in suggesting its not a misleading choice of frame shots?

If public opinion weren't relevant, the prosecutor Migini wouldn't have worked so hard from the outset to paint Amanda in particular in a false light. Repeatedly leaking false information to Italian tabloids, dutifully picked up and embellished by the British tabloids. The myth of guilt is a national hoax in the UK and Italy, not sure if you've been infected.

Perhaps we'll agree to disagree. So far as I can tell, humiliation and public expectation or ridicule is about the only thing the Italian justice system seems to respond to.

Oh well, ho hum, perhaps they'll lose their final appeal in Italy, and in time, the ECHR will eventually get to them. Btw, what is the average waiting time to get an outcome from the ECHR? Oh well, Raf will just have to be patient one supposes. Stiff upper lip and all that.

This case was an intentional fraud from day 1. A literal madman in the guise of a public minister in Perugia framed two innocent people, just as he has done to numerous innocent Italians before them in the Monster of Florence cases. That's just what we know about.

The biggest difference I see between our views, is you're suggesting the Italian justice system is functioning legitimately in this case, and just needs time to work its way through it. I don't see it that way. I see corrupt barbarians who care nothing for justice; not for Meredith, the kerchers, the knoxs or the Sollecitos. They only care for 'saving face'. They are abhorrent for what they've done.

But why get in a huff, there are so many other issues to worry about, right? Really don't know why, but this one gets me. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

 

[acbytesla]

At this stage of proceedings, American or Italian public opinion will have no bearing on the Italian Supreme Court ruling, as I said American public opinion is important if Amanda loses her final appeal and Italian judiciary request extradition.



The Italian public remain somewhat muted or indifferent to Raffaele’s plight. I accept that American public opinion can and does influence public officials, but that Italian judiciary are independent of their government and Italian public opinion.



At this stage of the case it will be down to how the Italian Supreme Court interpret the Perugia and Florence motivations against the strength of Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal.



Yes of course this matters only to American public opinion, but that will only become relevant if Raffaele and Amanda lose their appeal and the Italian judiciary request extradition.

I am not aware of any ground swell of Italian public opinion in support of Raffaele.

I think to a certain degree we are saying the same thing. With maybe one small exception. I'm of the belief that IF there was a groundswell of support in Italy for Raffaele and Amanda, it MAY have an effect even though the officials would deny it.

My belief is that judges are human beings and can be persuaded by public opinion. Italian, American, British, whatever.

 

[anglolawyer]

Rudy tells it that there was a chase through the back hall. Papers were thrown from the book shelf and the drying rack was overturned. Of course, in Rudy's telling, he was the one being chased and his hand instinctively reached out to knock those things down. This is when Rudy is close enough to the assailant to have his hand cut by the knife and Rudy is running backwards with his pants falling to his ankles. This is clearly a fabrication on Rudy's part. But there is evidence that some of the parts may be true.

There are indeed some items in the hall that may have been dislodged from the shelf such as the pink bag, a clothes pin from the drying rack was spotted under the radiator. These obstacles in Rudy's path give Meredith a chance to escape into her room. But she is unable to lock the door. Perhaps the key is in her purse or in the lock on the outside

These points seem to pose problems for Amanda. She made no mention of finding any of this on the Friday morning AFAIR.

 

[acbytesla]

These points seem to pose problems for Amanda. She made no mention of finding any of this on the Friday morning AFAIR.

I think they are barely noticeable anglo and may ony be noticed if you really looked. One of the facts of life is that people aren't that cognizant of their surroundings. We see it over and over again in experiments. Some people are much better at then others but for the most part, people don't notice this stuff until they take a good hard look and often not even then.