Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[analemma]

Damn right it's odd. It's also illegal.

Not in Italy
This is so outrageous.
On IIP I noted that that Kercher lawyer was BRAGGING in an interview that he was sure that AK & RS were dooomed because of this conviction without representation. He seemed proud of it.

 

[RWVBWL]

Okay last try. I'm not talking about figuring out that Rudi was there but rather if someone involved with the computer theft that was not Rudi was there.

Let's say Rudi was more of a fence than a burglar. Let's say that he did occasionally burgle but also middled stolen stuff. He told the Milan cops a partial truth when he said he bought them in the train station. He had acquired them but in Perugia and was going to sell them in Milan. When he went back to the lawyers' office he was telling the truth when he told them he hadn't stolen them.

Now if the PLE had found prints on the computers that matched prints in the cottage that would mean someone involved in the theft of the computers ALSO was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered and not the kids. A different accomplice for Rudi.

Hi Grinder,
I soooo wish that LMT still had their Alternate Theories website up!
http://alternatetheories-perugiamurder.blogspot.com/

You're an old reader of PS,
surely you remember some of their reporting of the brutal murder of Miss Kercher
and also of the crime ridden stories that LMT posted about Perugia.
I bet JREF member Magister does,
stories that included more detailed info about the lawyers who had their office broken into,
of whom Rudi was found to be in possession of their laptop when busted in Milan, right?
.
Gosh, I soooo wish that I had saved a print out of that old website.
You newer folks would understand soooo much more about the local dynamics of this tragic case we discuss.
Dan O. or anyone else?: Do you have access to this work?
I looked around, once again, last night, no go...
RW

 

[Diocletus]

Not in Italy

Yes it is illegal in Italy. They just haven't figured that out yet. You see, they signed onto this treaty under which they agreed to allow defendants to have fair trials before independent, public courts. Among other things, that means not adjudicating someone's guilt in a different guy's summary proceeding.

I expect that the ISC is going to finally figure this out in this upcoming round. Will be interesting to see how they try to save themselves without looking like idiots.

 

[Diocletus]

Okay last try. I'm not talking about figuring out that Rudi was there but rather if someone involved with the computer theft that was not Rudi was there.

Let's say Rudi was more of a fence than a burglar. Let's say that he did occasionally burgle but also middled stolen stuff. He told the Milan cops a partial truth when he said he bought them in the train station. He had acquired them but in Perugia and was going to sell them in Milan. When he went back to the lawyers' office he was telling the truth when he told them he hadn't stolen them.

Now if the PLE had found prints on the computers that matched prints in the cottage that would mean someone involved in the theft of the computers ALSO was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered and not the kids. A different accomplice for Rudi.

Oh, if they were looking for yet another guy. I guess they could have done that. They also could have fingerprinted all of the shady characters that Rudy contacted on his phones.

 

[Grinder]

Rudy would need money to be a fence Grinder. Also, its worth noting that he was caught inside the nursery and that Christian Tremantano found him inside his residence.

Sure, you can add a lot of "what ifs" if you want. Here is a what if for you.

What if Rudy or Rudi did break into Christian Tremantano's, the nursery and the law office. Wouldn't that mean it is a very distinct possibility, maybe even a probability that he also broke into the cottage and therefore it is far more likely that the break in was "real" and "not staged"?

Cristian is a little more sketchy. By the way it is spelled Cristian Tramontano. Rudi's name only came up after his pictures were in the paper.

The only "proof" of Rudi breaking into the law offices is that he had their stuff. Fences always have stolen stuff and no they don't always buy the stuff, sometimes, like drugs, it is fronted to them. It could be the case that Rudi owed the man money and they went with him to get it at the cottage.

What was Koko or Cocoa doing there?

 

[Grinder]

Oh, if they were looking for yet another guy. I guess they could have done that. They also could have fingerprinted all of the shady characters that Rudy contacted on his phones.

Yes and I think when unidentified prints are found at the murder scene that should have been done.

 

[Grinder]

Hi Grinder,
I soooo wish that LMT still had their Alternate Theories website up!
http://alternatetheories-perugiamurder.blogspot.com/

You're an old reader of PS,
surely you remember some of their reporting of the brutal murder of Miss Kercher
and also of the crime ridden stories that LMT posted about Perugia.
I bet JREF member Magister does,
stories that included more detailed info about the lawyers who had their office broken into,
of whom Rudi was found to be in possession of their laptop when busted in Milan, right?
.
Gosh, I soooo wish that I had saved a print out of that old website.
You newer folks would understand soooo much more about the local dynamics of this tragic case we discuss.
Dan O. or anyone else?: Do you have access to this work?
I looked around, once again, last night, no go...
RW

Of course I remember LMT and the Albanian drug gang info. Remember she had a theory or facts about Biscotti having some case involving the Albanians or some grand conspiracy theory. She also did a ton of stuff on the killer being left handed IIRC.

 

[codyjuneau]

Thanks Codi.

.
You're welcome.

Codi
.

 

[carbonjam72]

movies?

Andrea Vogt is now reporting that George Clooney is beginning the production of his "Monster of Florence" film.

Mignini's shill is doing a little bit of preemptive PR spin, even before Clooney's screenplay is out.

If you listen to Vogt, the Monster of Floernce case is a complete invention of Mario Spezi and Douglas Preston. You'd never have thought that Mignini was actually charged with crimes on the basis of THAT prosecution....

Me, I think she's just mad that Nadeau was played by Beckinsale in Nadeau's horrid screenplay.

Don't tell me Nadeau wrote that P.O.S. directed by Brit Shill Winterbottom?

I am curious as to who will play Mignini? Since thy never caught the monster, its tough to see how they will portray it. My guess is like Zodiac'.

 

[Desert Fox]

Look, handling always includes theft. If you are in a stolen car you are handling it what with being inside it and all. That is not the problem. You do not have to see someone steal to prove theft, obviously. The problem is what I said - drunks blag a car and drive home, dumping it a hundred yards from the house. That is not stealing since there is no intention to permanently deprive. Borrowing is not stealing. Cars are special. Trust me. I'm a lawyer.

WTH I looked it up for you

in the Washington penal code:
(1) A person is guilty of taking a motor vehicle without permission in the second degree if he or she, without the permission of the owner or person entitled to possession, intentionally takes or drives away any automobile or motor vehicle, whether propelled by steam, electricity, or internal combustion engine, that is the property of another, or he or she voluntarily rides in or upon the automobile or motor vehicle with knowledge of the fact that the automobile or motor vehicle was unlawfully taken.

(2) Taking a motor vehicle without permission in the second degree is a class C felony.

TWOCing - US version.

Something gives me a hint that this is a pretty old law. . . .
Stealing a car powered by a AIP might not be a crime by this though

 

[RWVBWL]

Of course I remember LMT and the Albanian drug gang info. Remember she had a theory or facts about Biscotti having some case involving the Albanians or some grand conspiracy theory. She also did a ton of stuff on the killer being left handed IIRC.

Hi Grinder,
I corresponded with LMT thru FS's bog back then,
I was told by LMT that, IIRC, they were not just 1 person.
The local knowledge of Perugia that LMT presented was very informative!
We discussed, IIRC, the bruising found on Meredith in the PS reader postings...
I would soooo luv to re-read and share here with our fellow current debaters what LMT wrote of...

Any hints if the old pages are stored somewhere?
I've spent about an hour lookin' for 'em recently.
Someone knows...
RW

 

[acbytesla]

Cristian is a little more sketchy. By the way it is spelled Cristian Tramontano. Rudi's name only came up after his pictures were in the paper.

The only "proof" of Rudi breaking into the law offices is that he had their stuff. Fences always have stolen stuff and no they don't always buy the stuff, sometimes, like drugs, it is fronted to them. It could be the case that Rudi owed the man money and they went with him to get it at the cottage.

What was Koko or Cocoa doing there?

You still didn't address my question. Doesn't all these facts mean it is more likely that Rudy broke into the cottage?

All of what you are suggesting is possible. Never the less, fences usually have money. They have to be both "buying" and "selling" goods which means that they are available to be contacted which means they probably have a phone and they usually don't put themselves in the position of being caught breaking into places.

The evidence doesn't suggest that Rudy...sorry Rudi is a fence, but is in fact a burglar.

 

[analemma]

Yes it is illegal in Italy. They just haven't figured that out yet. You see, they signed onto this treaty under which they agreed to allow defendants to have fair trials before independent, public courts. Among other things, that means not adjudicating someone's guilt in a different guy's summary proceeding.

I expect that the ISC is going to finally figure this out in this upcoming round. Will be interesting to see how they try to save themselves without looking like idiots.

I think that they are proud of it and think themselves very clever.
listen to thet worm Maresca in this article
"For-Kerchers-court-reasoning-a-step-toward-truth.html"
One key point, according to Maresca, is that the new verdict relies heavily on the reasoning behind the long-confirmed guilty verdict against Rudy Hermann Guede, serving as a sort of thread to the latest conviction. He is serving a 16-year sentence.
....
A key element of the Guede verdict was that it held he didn't act alone. ...
Some of the most graphic conclusions — that Knox delivered the fatal blow, that two knives were used, even though only one was identified — also were part of the first trial court's reasoning. But this time the judge wrote that the aggression didn't grow out of a consensual erotic game gone awry, as prosecutors in the first trial contended, because it was out of Kercher's character.
They are Bragging about the ruling!!!!!!

 

[carbonjam72]

Dietrologia cum Grynderos

Okay last try. I'm not talking about figuring out that Rudi was there but rather if someone involved with the computer theft that was not Rudi was there.

Let's say Rudi was more of a fence than a burglar. Let's say that he did occasionally burgle but also middled stolen stuff. He told the Milan cops a partial truth when he said he bought them in the train station. He had acquired them but in Perugia and was going to sell them in Milan. When he went back to the lawyers' office he was telling the truth when he told them he hadn't stolen them.

Now if the PLE had found prints on the computers that matched prints in the cottage that would mean someone involved in the theft of the computers ALSO was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered and not the kids. A different accomplice for Rudi.

Problem with speculating about Rudy(i)'s possible accomplices, is that he (of the y or i variety) is spotted on the parking garage video cam coming and going by himself before the arrival of Meredith.

So, simplest explanation is he was there alone. Certainly no trace of anyone else inside, so what were they doing, circling the block for a parking spot?

Seems like gratuitous dietrologia absent any foundation in likelihood, evidence, or truth. So why Grynder, whi?

 

[acbytesla]

I really am amazed at you Grinder.

You can't be this gullible. I know you're not. This all about being that burr under everyone's saddle. You seem to accept Rudy's word on everything, other than his original Skype statement that Amanda wasn't at the cottage.

You ran with the idea that Rudy had a date with Meredith, despite the fact that no one can and did confirm that idea. That Rudy himself "staged a burglary" to deflect suspicion from himself. You are now suggesting that Rudy is a fence of stolen goods because he told the police that he bought the laptop that was stolen in Perugia.....in Milan!!!

Rudy who doesn't have the money to stay at hostel, buys a laptop instead and breaks into a nursery for a place to sleep??

At what point do you come to the conclusion that Rudi is lying to you?

 

[acbytesla]

Problem with speculating about Rudy(i)'s possible accomplices, is that he (of the y or i variety) is spotted on the parking garage video cam coming and going by himself before the arrival of Meredith.

So, simplest explanation is he was there alone. Certainly no trace of anyone else inside, so what were they doing, circling the block for a parking spot?

Seems like gratuitous dietrologia absent any foundation in likelihood, evidence, or truth. So why Grynder, whi?

Is Rudy seen coming and going by the Garage video cam? The image of him is worse than the latest image of what Nancy Grace says is Amanda.

 

[Grinder]

You still didn't address my question. Doesn't all these facts mean it is more likely that Rudy broke into the cottage?

Sure, plug that into your Bayesian equation. More likely than what? I have never bought the kids staging so... what is it your trying to prove.

All of what you are suggesting is possible. Never the less, fences usually have money. They have to be both "buying" and "selling" goods which means that they are available to be contacted which means they probably have a phone and they usually don't put themselves in the position of being caught breaking into places.

The evidence doesn't suggest that Rudy...sorry Rudi is a fence, but is in fact a burglar.

Sorry but the actual evidence doesn't prove he was a burglar, especially with this new info. Thieves like to dispose of the loot fast and it sounds like he more than 3 laptops in his apartment.

Really other than Cristian Tramontano (is it okay that I use Massei's spelling?) there is no evidence of actual breaking and entering. The nursery was a case of his being let in to spend the night. The lawyers' case shows only that he possessed to the stolen items.

Whether fences usually have money at this low level may or may not be the case. He could have taken the stolen stuff and traded drugs which had been fronted. Neither or us knows.

He had a phone according to RW and that information is what we are basing all of this on - you need to keep up and try harder to follow the convo.

 

[RWVBWL]

Have you folks ever lived or worked near the beach and had an unoccupied car block your driveway?
ERRRR!!!

The main reason to keep this in mind is that Rudi, err Rudy might have had an accomplice due to the FACT that the tow truck driver saw an old dark car parked at the top of the driveway to Miss Kercher's flat that night.

There are no, I'll repeat, no reports of anyone entering, starting up and driving this dark car,
(which FS reports had old license plates too on it),
away while the tow truck driver worked on the broken down car.

A much overlooked clue, in my old surfer opinion!

So that must mean the old dark colored car was still parked at the entrance to Meredith Kercher's flat
when the tow truck driver left,
right?

Raffaele ain't drivin' no old beat up car, his society status dictates that!
So whose car was it, what was it doing there?

The driver parked it there so they didn't have to pay a parkin' fee as the went shoppin' l8 on on holiday night.
Nope! To late at night...

The parker of the car was bangin' some gal or guy who lived near Nara and didn't wanna pay the parkin' fee as he did so, so he took a chance that Filomena, Laura, Meredith or Amanda was not gonna tow away his car as he got it on?
Maybe that was the LOUD scream Nara heard, some chick havin'n an incredible O.
Nope.

Why was the dark colored car, which had old license plates,
(like Kokomani's car did, from what I recall)
still there at the top of Meredith's driveway when the tow truck,
and the family whose broken down auto was repaired, then split the scene?

Any other suggestions?
RW

 

[Diocletus]

I think that they are proud of it and think themselves very clever.
listen to thet worm Maresca in this article
"For-Kerchers-court-reasoning-a-step-toward-truth.html"
One key point, according to Maresca, is that the new verdict relies heavily on the reasoning behind the long-confirmed guilty verdict against Rudy Hermann Guede, serving as a sort of thread to the latest conviction. He is serving a 16-year sentence.
....
A key element of the Guede verdict was that it held he didn't act alone. ...
Some of the most graphic conclusions — that Knox delivered the fatal blow, that two knives were used, even though only one was identified — also were part of the first trial court's reasoning. But this time the judge wrote that the aggression didn't grow out of a consensual erotic game gone awry, as prosecutors in the first trial contended, because it was out of Kercher's character.
They are Bragging about the ruling!!!!!!

Yeah, I know. But it's not clever. It's unseemly, dumb and illegal. I think that anyone who is sensible and thinks through the issue can see that.

 

[Grinder]

I really am amazed at you Grinder.

You can't be this gullible. I know you're not. This all about being that burr under everyone's saddle. You seem to accept Rudy's word on everything, other than his original Skype statement that Amanda wasn't at the cottage.

You ran with the idea that Rudy had a date with Meredith, despite the fact that no one can and did confirm that idea. That Rudy himself "staged a burglary" to deflect suspicion from himself. You are now suggesting that Rudy is a fence of stolen goods because he told the police that he bought the laptop that was stolen in Perugia.....in Milan!!!

Rudy who doesn't have the money to stay at hostel, buys a laptop instead and breaks into a nursery for a place to sleep??

At what point do you come to the conclusion that Rudi is lying to you?

Tesla you seem to have reading comprehension problems. I don't accept Rudi's word about the scream. I don't accept Rudi's word about trying to save Meredith. I do accept Rudi saying Amanda wasn't there.

I don't as you did that Rudi was so unattractive that Meredith could never consider dating him or whatever one wants to call it. I do think it is possible that he had a meetup arranged or that he thought he did. I doubt the girls remembered much of the later hours of the night before.

As usual you jump to your own limited experiences. First off the new information RW brought to the table does engender new thought for people not fixated on only one possibility. With your wide experiences of all things criminal because you know a cop, do burglars that are poor and need to make a rent payment hold onto the stolen items or do they sell them.

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Rudi did have someone let him in and I think paid him. Maybe old Rudi had a little more cash than you think. Do you have any proof that he was indeed short of cash for rent?