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Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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By comparing Jesus to Jupiter (Zeus), Justin Martyr has effectively joined them at the hip--either they both are total fictions or they are Euhemerisms of real men. So why do we say Zeus is a myth and call it a day? :boggled:
That's a remarkable argument! May I paraphrase Mark 10:9
What therefore Justin hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
But it is not in fact obligatory to agree with Justin Martyr on this point. One of these beings might be a fiction and not the other.
 
If someone walked into the Vatican with Jesus' remains, I think the Vatican would mount a massive denial campaign from that day and forever until those remains were no longer around or the Vatican was destroyed - whichever history accomplished first.

They would not have to mount any massive denial.

The person who claimed to have the remains of Jesus perhaps would be charged with a crime or considered a crazy idiot.

The Vatican know where Jesus is. Their Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God.

Can you imagine how stupid it would look for someone to claim to have the remains of Jesus while the Pope was praying to the Lord and Savior?

The Vatican must be laughing at HJers.
 
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They would not have to mount any massive denial.

The person who claimed to have the remains of Jesus perhaps would be charged with a crime or considered a crazy idiot.

The Vatican know where Jesus is. Their Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God.

Can you imagine how stupid it would look for someone to claim to have the remains of Jesus while the Pope was praying to the Lord and Savior?

The Vatican must be laughing at HJers.
That's exactly right. Their Jesus can't have any remains on earth; and the Vatican is entirely in disagreement with the atheists who state that if Jesus existed he was a purely human and non-supernatural figure. The people the Vatican likes are the ones who go about quoting Holy Saints like Justin Martyr and John Chrysostom, and take their drivel seriously.
 
That's exactly right. Their Jesus can't have any remains on earth; and the Vatican is entirely in disagreement with the atheists who state that if Jesus existed he was a purely human and non-supernatural figure. The people the Vatican likes are the ones who go about quoting Holy Saints like Justin Martyr and John Chrysostom, and take their drivel seriously.

What a big joke.:jaw-dropp

HJers are looking for the remains of Jesus of Nazareth while the Pope is talking to the resurrected Jesus in heaven.

HJers are not going to find the remains of Jesus of Nazareth.

He NEVER died.:jaw-dropp
 
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No one is really looking for a physical Jesus outside of a very small cluster of one-off individuals.

And any time someone does make even a claim of finding something anywhere near related to the Jesus figure or the family described, the find is immediately pounded to uncertainty and left to rest in the void of not being officially accepted because there are multiple audits of the findings and the various audits each came to completely different conclusions on the authenticity, or the accuracy of the finds.

It's nearly a suicide wish to jump up and say that you found some archaeological material relating to the Jesus account.
 
What a big joke.:jaw-dropp

HJers are looking for the remains of Jesus of Nazareth while the Pope is talking to the resurrected Jesus in heaven.

HJers are not going to find the remains of Jesus of Nazareth.

He NEVER died.:jaw-dropp
Therefore the HJers disagree with the Pope and you agree with His Holiness that Jesus is in Heaven because you accept his Infallibility while the HJers are looking for the carcass of an obscure preacher, and they don't expect anyone even to have kept it. But you think they won't find it because the Pope says Jesus is in Heaven!
 
Therefore the HJers disagree with the Pope and you agree with His Holiness that Jesus is in Heaven because you accept his Infallibility while the HJers are looking for the carcass of an obscure preacher, and they don't expect anyone even to have kept it. But you think they won't find it because the Pope says Jesus is in Heaven!

I am laughing because HJers cannot find the remains of their Jesus for hundreds of years.

All HJers have is the Shroud of Turin and a pack of fake 1st century writings filled with fiction and events that could not have happened.

Heaven does not even exist.

HJers cannot find their Jesus dead or alive --in heaven and earth.:jaw-dropp
 
So according to a 2000 year old bible it was Judus not Jesus who was crucified. With Jesus a prophet who predicted the coming of Mohammed? (Sorry posting on phone so can't link to news item).

What will small minded folks blame the Jews for now?
 
Thanks for a most informative post.
Curiously enough I have a kami in my house, at least so my Japanese colleagues say. So it must be true, right?

Well, kami can also mean guardian spirit ala numen, a sort of step up from genius loci and can refer to an actual person rather than a supernatual being.

There is a story of a fisherman who noticing the tide was unusually low persuaded the people in the area to go to to a nearby mountain. According to the story as the last person to heed the fisherman's call reached the top of the mountain a tidal wave hit the area devastating everything in its path. The fisherman was revered as the kami of the area even after his death.

Similarly winners of the Ancient Olympic games were revered and even worshiped as "gods" by their home cities.

It would be interesting if at any point the Japanese considered Audie Murphy a sort of American kami.
 
I am laughing because HJers cannot find the remains of their Jesus for hundreds of years.

All HJers have is the Shroud of Turin and a pack of fake 1st century writings filled with fiction and events that could not have happened.

Heaven does not even exist.

HJers cannot find their Jesus dead or alive --in heaven and earth.:jaw-dropp
The HJers don't have the Shroud of Turin. It's your Infallible Lord and Teacher the Pope who owns the Shroud.
It was the property of the House of Savoy until 1983, when it was given to the Holy See, the rule of the House of Savoy having ended in 1946.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin#16th_century_to_present So when Jesus comes down from Heaven you and the Infallible Holy Father can give it back to him.
 
That clearly is not the common Christian interpretation of what you are reading (see above from the Catechism of the Catholic church).

I honestly don't think they would try to wiggle the issue at all.
If someone walked into the Vatican with Jesus' remains, I think the Vatican would mount a massive denial campaign from that day and forever until those remains were no longer around or the Vatican was destroyed - whichever history accomplished first.

Even if, somehow, there was absolute undeniable proof that the bones were Jesus' bones; I'm rather sure the Vatican would deny them.




Jayson - I just quoted to you what Paul’s letter 1-Corinthians actually says about that resurrection (according to Bible Gateway). And in contrast to the quote which you had offered to me and which turned out to be a completely untrue invention and not actually in Paul’s letter at all, what 1-Corinthians-15 actually says is what I just quoted to you; where in the most unmistakable terms it says Christ was not, and could not be, resurrected in the same human flesh, but was instead resurrected in a different spiritual form that was the only form that could enter the kingdom of God ...

… which sentences of 1-Corinthians 15 which I just quoted to you in detail with highlighting are you denying?

Here is the quote again below from 1-Corinthians 15 - please tell me which passages there are not genuinely from Paul? Which ones have I or Bible Gateway just invented please? - -




Without going through all of this again, and explaining again why Christians today, and quite possibly also at the time of biblical writing, are being entirely flexible with their meaning if the word “physical” when they say “physically raised from the dead”, just look at your highlighted quote … I immediately wondered if in fact 1-Corinthinians 15:14 did actually say as your quote says that Paul used the words “physically raised from the dead” , so I checked that. And here is what 1-Corinthians 15:14 actually says -


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians+15:14
1 Corinthians 15:14
New International Version (NIV)

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.



Notice the sentence is very brief indeed. And it makes no mention of the words physically raised”.

But notice also, that just a few paragraphs earlier in 1-Corinthians 15:3, Paul makes specifically clear that his entire belief in the resurrection of “Christ” is because he thinks it was stated in the ancient OT scripture, he is taking the entire idea from the OT -


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians+15:14
1 Corinthians 15:14
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,...



But even more specifically, just a few paragraphs further on in 1-Corinthians 15, Paul spells it out with total clarity saying that the earthly body is perishable and mortal and that when it is raised up it is not any longer of the same mortal flesh but is instead specifically a spiritual body, and furthermore that “ that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable”. See all the very clear highlights below.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians 35:52
1 Corinthians 15:14
The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.





The above with all it’s inescapable highlights is not just a matter of me picking out one quote from your above post and trying to show why that quote you gave is totally misleading and actually falsely implies that Paul in Corintians-15 had declared Christ “physically raised from the dead”, but we cannot keep going through completely fallacious arguments like this claiming that Paul’s letters say things where they manifestly say the actual opposite!

In which respect, please also note that those words of Paul in 1-Corinthinans-15, would as I said before be immediately produced by the Christian church to explain away any discovery of diseased bones said to be from Jesus on earth.
 
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I fully understand your quote, and I'm not remarking on your take of it.
I am pointing out that one of the largest Christian factions understands the subject exactly as they do regardless of any take other than their own on the matter.
 
JaysonR

They were pretty clear that the exact same body as was came back from the dead in the Catechism; wounds and all.
So, I did a word search for exact on this page. Yours is the first use of it here, in the earlier post and now again. Please cite where "they" said "the exact same body" did anything.

They said "same body." That's it. As I showed, noun phrases of the form same _complex object_ are uninformative about the disposition of parts that may have been discarded to make way for new improved parts, while retaining the unit identity of the complex object.

It is reasonably obvious that neither the Catholic Church, nor anybody else, has any hard and fast commitment to where Jesus' bones might fit into the story, because it has never come up. We do know that Catholics can contemplate Jesus' foreskin as a leftover - search Holy Prepuce, also mentioned by another poster. Note that the belief in that leftover is uninformative about whether the same folks believe that Jesus grew a new one, or perhaps circumscision is one of those "traces" that he retains.

(It also shows that human reasoning about fantasies is error-prone. Among the many continuity errors in the various Star Trek productions, a favorite is early in NG when Wesley Crusher falls into a pool on the holodeck, and returns to his room soaking wet. Error - the water is holomatter, and as such ceased to exist when he exited the holodeck. The writers either weren't thinking, or else the gag was too good to pass up. One or the other explains the forsekin relic, but also shows that if a relic "shows up," then its existence will be accommodated into the story.)

We also know that IRL many faithful Catholics lose body parts in surgery: amputations, joint reconstructions and replacements, hysterectomies, tonsilectomies and so forth. Dentists extract Catholic teeth. These pieces are disposed of in various ways. Some are preserved for pathology education and research - in developed countries, with the informed consent by the same person whose parts they were. Is it your view that the RCC teaches that at the end of days, an angel will scour hospitals, medical schools, dental schools and other labs worldwide, gathering up the pathology slides to be reassigned back to their original owners? No, the RCC doesn't teach that. It's patent BS, even by their standards.

Similarly, in the case of organ transplants. If Joe receives a kidney from Mary, harvested posthumously, who gets it come the resurrection? Neither the new one nor Joe's old one still exists. are both rebuilt and reallocated? But wait - it was Joe's kidney when he died, and was Mary's when she died. Isn't it when you died that counts for "sameness?" There must be some time that "counts," since none of us who survive childhood, including Jesus, has the same teeth we had in early childhood. Or in your view, do Catholics teach that resurrection bodies have two sets of front teeth? Oh but wait, that's not the "same body," that's a body that none of us have ever had.

Tese hypotheticals are consistent with scriptural concerns. Paul considers similar kinds of arguments in 1 Corinthians 15:29ff. As well he might, since the doctrine of the general resurrection is much older than Christianity, and Paul places Jesus' rise as part of the general resurrection. The details were unresolved then, and they remain unresolved now.

People are committed only to what they actually say, not to what you read into their remarks, and especially not to whatever improvements you make to what they have said.

And one more point about abuse of language,

Instead, they clearly believe all of his body came back; not part, or all but the bad parts.
It obviously isn't "clear," else we wouldn't be having this conversation. The very fact that it isn't clear means that the people in question are not committed now to your version of what they would say if and when the hypothesized situation happened.
 
I fully understand your quote, and I'm not remarking on your take of it.
I am pointing out that one of the largest Christian factions understands the subject exactly as they do regardless of any take other than their own on the matter.



Jayson, this is becoming quite ridiculous. You appear to be in denial lol. ... Look; that is not "my take of it"! It's what Paul's letter actually says.

Does the letter say that or not?

I am not at this juncture arguing about what any current day Christian group (large or small) claims to believe. Does Paul’s letter clearly and undeniably say that Christ was raised a spiritual form and that any former earthly body of the flesh specifically could not enter heaven. Does it say that or not?
 
Jayson, this is becoming quite ridiculous. You appear to be in denial lol. ... Look; that is not "my take of it"! It's what Paul's letter actually says.

Does the letter say that or not?

I am not at this juncture arguing about what any current day Christian group (large or small) claims to believe. Does Paul’s letter clearly and undeniably say that Christ was raised a spiritual form and that any former earthly body of the flesh specifically could not enter heaven. Does it say that or not?
I can't find a reference to a "former earthly body" in the words of Paul you quote. So it doesn't "say that". Can you be specific about the exact phraseology you are paraphrasing as "former earthly"? Paul speaks of "one kind" and "another kind", clearly and undeniably; but "former earthly" I simply can't find in the texts you cite. Are you referring to this?
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
Was one star former to another? Was the glory of the sun formerly that of the moon? Paul's words are indeed difficult to reconcile with orthodox Christian doctrine regarding the resurrection; but the words you attribute to him are nowhere in the text of the NIV NT. Is the expression "former earthly body" in the version you are using? I raise this because you insist that you are reproducing
not "my take of it"
but
what Paul's letter actually says.
 
Ian,

It does not matter what the Bible holds in it, in this point.
It matters what the Church believes.

Making any point about their belief not being their belief because their Bible doesn't agree with their belief, does not change what they believe.

What matters is what they think the Bible states, not what it really states, or what we say it does.
 
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Eight bits,

Perhaps you could offer them your take so they could have an escape plan.
It seems rather stated several times, and I know from experience of Catholic schooling and living with Greek orthodox monks that what I have pointed out is how they view it.

If you offer something like what you suggest, then you will get told thst such views are misunderstandings, and then a talk about why it must be so that his exact body was risen and nothing else.
 
Ian,

It does not matter what the Bible holds in it, in this point.
It matters what the Church believes.

Making any point about their belief not being their belief because their Bible doesn't agree with their belief, does not change what they believe.

What matters is what they think the Bible states, not what it really states, or what we say it does.



Well that is your own subjective opinion. But I am asking you first, before any subjective personal opinion (either yours or that of any church group), to address the fact of what is very clearly said in Paul's letter -

- does Paul's letter say what I just quoted to you or not?

- and are Paul's words not a complete total contradiction of any physical human flesh resurrection of Christ?

Let's get that clear first, before we proceed to discuss what any current day Christian group (even the Vatican!) may or may not actually believe about the nature of a miraculous resurrection - does the letter say what I said it does or not (and I think that’s the 3rd or 4th time of asking now)?
 
Luke 24:39 shows that the glorified Jesus has flesh ("a spirit hath not flesh and bones"), so 1 Corinthians 15:50 can’t mean resurrected beings have no flesh or blood. What does Paul mean, then, when he declares, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"? He’s saying that natural, physical life as it is now constituted cannot inherit the kingdom of God. A supernatural transformation must occur first (1 Cor 15:53).

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...ell-us-that-jesus-glorified-body-has-no-blood

Also, you should read this:
https://thedivinelamp.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/father-callans-commentary-on-1-corinthians-1535-58/
 
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