Endless Punishment, Fundie style

[bruto]

I come across this little book called The Doctrine of Endless Punishment, by a 19th century author named William Shedd, republished by a modern Baptist press, for the edification of religious students and for ammunition against the sin of universalism (according to the preface) and I came across this passage:

Adopting the Augustino-Calvinistic statement of this fall, it can then be said that infants like all others of the human family, freely and responsibly "sinned in Adam, and fell with him, in his first transgression"...This is no more impossible, and no more of a mystery, in the case of infants, than of adults. If it be conceded that the whole race apostatized in Adam, infants are righteously exposed to the punishment of sin, and have no claim upon the Divine mercy. The sin which brings condemnation upon them is original sin, and not actual transgressions. But original sin is the sinful inclination of the will. An infant has a rational soul; this soul has a will; this will is wrongly inclined; and inclination is self-determined and punishable. If sinful inclination in an adult needs to be expiated by the atoning blood of Christ, so does sinful inclination in an infant. ......etc. etc.

I am particularly struck by the highlighted sentence, since it makes clear that it is not what you do, but what you are, that is sinful. By expert reverse logic it is proved that to be born is to have sinned freely. NOthing new here, I suppose, but it's rare to see the **** packed so compactly into the crock.

 

[fuelair]

I come across this little book called The Doctrine of Endless Punishment, by a 19th century author named William Shedd, republished by a modern Baptist press, for the edification of religious students and for ammunition against the sin of universalism (according to the preface) and I came across this passage:



I am particularly struck by the highlighted sentence, since it makes clear that it is not what you do, but what you are, that is sinful. By expert reverse logic it is proved that to be born is to have sinned freely. NOthing new here, I suppose, but it's rare to see the **** packed so compactly into the crock.

Like butter in a butter bell or **** on a shingle!!!

 

[SezMe]

It is the most wide-spread child abuse in the world to tell a kid he is a sinner from the get go.

 

[ehcks]

I thought that the death and resurrection of Jesus was supposed to relieve humanity of that sin, and that this forgiveness was the entire point of Christianity being different from Judaism.

 

[catsmate]

This kinda reminds me of this article on what the author calls "anti-human" theology.

 

[Donn]

I thought that the death and resurrection of Jesus was supposed to relieve humanity of that sin, and that this forgiveness was the entire point of Christianity being different from Judaism.

I highlighted the problem.

 

[Donn]

Nice quote from that site:

Like a thick vein of mineral coursing through bedrock, the notion of human brokenness runs beneath the whole structure of the Christian message. It’s crucial to the belief system. In order to need a savior you have to have something to save people from. According to “the good news,” that something is ourselves. When challenged about this, they will quickly backpedal and insist that it’s sin, not you, that you need saving from; it’s really something external to you, they will say. But this isn’t exactly an honest representation of how most Christians are taught to think and talk about themselves. When the public spotlight turns away and they begin to talk to each other and to themselves, the self-hatred and critical language begins to flow. You hear it in their prayers. You hear it in their favorite songs. You hear it in their testimonies and read it on their blogs. Negative self-talk abounds, and it’s inseparable from the narrative they recite to themselves every day. I learned it well, and it still haunts me to this day.

 

[fuelair]

I thought that the death and resurrection of Jesus was supposed to relieve humanity of that sin, and that this forgiveness was the entire point of Christianity being different from Judaism.

That's why a large number of "christians" really are not christians - they are old testament ********.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I am particularly struck by the highlighted sentence, since it makes clear that it is not what you do, but what you are, that is sinful. By expert reverse logic it is proved that to be born is to have sinned freely. NOthing new here, I suppose, but it's rare to see the **** packed so compactly into the crock.

I’m not sure what you find so surprising. This is the basic idea of original sin, burning in hell if you are a very naughty boy, and Jesus dying for our sins.

The copy available online here http://ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/The Doctrine of Endless Punishment.pdf has a an extra word that was omitted from your quote:

and wrong inclination is self-determined and punishable.

He is saying that (because of the fall of Adam) to be born (or conceived) is to have the capacity for sin, and therefore to be subject to the judgment of God for entry into heaven.

For ages Christians have been trying to figure out how the ticket into heaven works. Particular problems are people incapable of accepting Jesus as their savior—people who died before Jesus, people living in areas where they never heard of Jesus, people lacking a mental capacity to comprehend Jesus…and infants.

One theory is that they go to Limbo, which lacks the grace of Heaven, but also lacks the torment of Hell. Another is that the soul goes to Purgatory, but may be admitted into Heaven after period of time or certain penance. Others believe the soul is doomed—unless the person has been baptized. Although baptism seems akin to a puberty ritual for a person coming of age to determine right from wrong being reborn into the religion, this is why many Christian sect baptize newborns as soon as possible. Get some magic dihydrogen monoxide on the forehead lest the child die and be prevented admittance to Heaven.

Others believe infants lack the capability for sin, and therefore get a free pass. Of course this position raises certain complications and questions. At what age does a child become capable of sin? How can you determine an innocent transgression from a willful sin? If an infant, like an animal, lacks capability for sin, does it also, like an animal, lack a soul? And so on. Neither the doomed baby nor the soulless child is particularly appealing.

Shedd is saying it doesn’t work that way. There isn’t really a free pass: “The sin which brings condemnation upon them is original sin, and not actual transgressions.” It doesn’t matter whether or not you have done anything evil. Due to the fall of Adam, everybody has sin, which can only be removed by the grace of God. Of course Shedd goes on to say that God will be just, so the infant will still get into Heaven—just by the grace and will of God, not due to a free pass. It is mostly arguing a technicality.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

He is saying that (because of the fall of Adam) to be born (or conceived) is to have the capacity for sin, and therefore to be subject to the judgment of God for entry into heaven.

But Original Sin only affects Adam's descendents. It doesn't apply to those of us who evolved from monkeys.

For ages Christians have been trying to figure out how the ticket into heaven works.

There are no tickets to Heaven.

Where Will the Kingdom Be Established?

A dominant falsehood that Satan has foisted on mankind is the belief that one's soul goes to heaven after death. Many people assume that the phrase Kingdom of God is synonymous with heaven, but the Bible teaches that when Jesus Christ returns, the Kingdom of God will be established on earth!

 

[Donn]

And they call lawyers sharks!

 

[catsmate]

Blood and sorrow, pain unending,
Are the portion of us all.

 

[Peterson]

But Original Sin only affects Adam's descendents. It doesn't apply to those of us who evolved from monkeys.

There are no tickets to Heaven.

Where Will the Kingdom Be Established?

That's a bizarre website to use as an example. They are far from mainstream and since they are not trinitarian, I'd argue they may not even be Christian. I can't find figure out if they see Jesus as God and don't feel like digging deeper.

 

[CplFerro]

...An infant has a rational soul; this soul has a will; this will is wrongly inclined; and inclination is self-determined and punishable...

In other words, bruto, the human being wants to sin, and that wanting is both freely chosen by that being, and sinful in its own right.

Cpl Ferro

 

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Quote:
...An infant has a rational soul; this soul has a will; this will is wrongly inclined; and inclination is self-determined and punishable...

In other words, bruto, the human being wants to sin, and that wanting is both freely chosen by that being, and sinful in its own right.

Cpl Ferro

Thank you for that translation from nonsense to even less sense. Does the infant get a choice about being born with a rational soul?

 

[bruto]

In other words, bruto, the human being wants to sin, and that wanting is both freely chosen by that being, and sinful in its own right.

Cpl Ferro

It makes no sense at all. What you're saying is that the human tendency to sin, a condition with which we are always, and inevitably born, is freely chosen by a baby who knows nothing about anything. The idea of what sin is, and what a choice is, are rendered utterly worthless.

 

[John Jones]

Roger Ramjet and his Eagles fighting for our freedom
Fly through wind and outer-space not to join 'em but to beat 'em.
Roger Ramjet he's our man. The hero of our nation
For his adventures just be sure and stay tuned to this station.

 

[CplFerro]

It makes no sense at all. What you're saying is that the human tendency to sin, a condition with which we are always, and inevitably born, is freely chosen by a baby who knows nothing about anything. The idea of what sin is, and what a choice is, are rendered utterly worthless.

You're presuming one needs intellect to sin, bruto. That is the sin of the angels, or of mentally developed man. The philosophy in question presumes one only needs free will and be made in the image of God.

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

Thank you for that translation from nonsense to even less sense. Does the infant get a choice about being born with a rational soul?

Dear turingtest,

No.

This is the wrong question, however. The right question is whether or not an infant born with a rational soul has any choice in his will being wrongly inclined or not. If not, then original sin falls. If so, then it appears God has cherry-picked souls who would choose wills wrongly inclined, to create, and not created those who would choose rightly inclined wills.

Cpl Ferro

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Nice quote from that site:

There are so many unfulfilled promises of Christianity. If Jesus died for me why am I still saddled with original sin? There is no plausible answer. Also, think of those poor saps who were taught the end of time was near for 2000 years. To me religion is like a doughnut with a lot of stuff built around nothing. I respect the Priest or Pastor who works for the poor church and if you ever ask one of those, they will not talk of original sin and such hog wash. Wouldn't original sin in reality be a criticism of the creator?