Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[CapelDodger]

Interesting side-story here.

" I say ‘almost identical’, but in fact, while Ukrainian special forces were trying to clear anti-Ukrainian rebels from government buildings they had illegally taken over, Russian special forces killed four anti-Russian rebels in a private house. "

That's a very weird take on "identical".

The low-level insurgency in Daghestan is not new, nor are Russian counter-insurgency activities, brutal and indiscriminate as they can often be. Chechnya provides a better analogy, since there government buildings actually were once taken over by insurgents. An important difference appears to be that the Russians could take back Grozny, or at least the ruins of it, whereas the Ukrainians seem to have no prospect of taking back Slovyansk.

In fact the Kiev government appears so ineffectual one wonders if they could even take back Kiev. Perhaps it's time to try a new one with stronger leadership? I'm sure there'd be no shortage of candidates.

 

[Childlike Empress]

This morning around 5 am some forces listening to the putschists attacked Sloviansk and some other places in the east. The "government" are claiming to have "liberated" most of it, but there's a whole bunch of journalists on the ground who say otherwise. Two helicopters (likely fancy stuff like in the image below) admittedly shot down by the self-defense forces, they say a third one was just downed. Other than that, photos of people stopping tanks with their bare hands. One or the other injured in those attempts, some dead on both sides in shootings (mostly in the early morning, it seems).

 

[carlitos]

LINK

Many pro-Russia rebels have been killed, injured and arrested in the Ukrainian government offensive in the eastern city of Sloviansk, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov has said.

But, in a statement, he said the operation in the rebel-held city was not going as quickly as hoped.
...

Fergal Keane
BBC News, near Sloviansk
I am standing at a bridge where there is a stand-off going on between the Ukrainian armed forces and a large group of pro-Russian locals.

I can see about 300 people waving Russian flags, singing and chanting - as if they are daring the military to go closer.

A heavy downpour of rain and a lightning storm have pushed people back a little bit. But it is a very tense situation here.

At the moment the troops are standing around in the field and the protesters are keeping to their part of the bridge. It is difficult tell in which direction this will go. The atmosphere in a place like this can change very quickly.​

 

[angrysoba]

LINK

Seems to be reports of clashes in Odessa too which has not featured much in the news until now.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Seems to be reports of clashes in Odessa too which has not featured much in the news until now.

Odessa has been extremely ugly. The Right Sektor hordes have shown up there and attacked an anti-Kiev crowd of relatively small size. Used a fire truck to break through some barricades and set fire to the trade union building were the crowd fled to. Several dead, jumping out of the windows. Still going on.

The UNSC meeting was surreal. F,UK,US unisono babbling about a couple of hundred "armed men" - steered by Russia somehow - taking the civilian population hostage. The clown Feltman didn't even mention the putschist military offensive in his opening remarks. And that while it really isn't difficult to follow the news on the ground, as I said a whole bunch of reporters there witnessing (mostly unbloody) confrontations between large crowds of civilians and the military.

pete_leonard ‏@pete_leonard 3 Std.
Reuters crew walked out on bill in Slovyansk cafe without covering their dues, leaving AP to pick up tab. Clashes expected.

 

[Childlike Empress]

btw, here's an interesting interview with that guy Strelkov who seems to be the coordinator of those "Donetsk people's republic forces". Already a couple of days old, also about the non-OSCE military observers. I guess the flag flying below the copter in my pic above is the one of the mentioned airborne brigade:

[...] KP : And yet there's the impression that you're avoidig open clashes with army troops.

Strelkov : We know what we're up against : the Dnepropetrovsk 25th Airborne Brigade and paratroopers. In addition to the 95th paratrooper brigade from Zhitomir. The former is made up of residents of South-East Ukraine, and the latter is not much different. These are all soldiers who were deployed here against their will ; there are no volunteers amongst them. If we start killing them, and we do have opportunities to do so, then we'll be killing our brothers. The enemy is taking advantage of that. They move conscripts into the areas controlled by the People's Militia. The Militia members won't fight them. Once that's done, the Ukrainian command sets up a checkpoint, guards it with military vehicles which it mans with fighters from the Right Sector, the National Guard and SBU special units, who then carry out their duties under the protection of the paratroopers. If we were to open fire against mercenaries and extremists in military uniform, we'd be destroying Ukrainian army soldiers at the same time. For the time being, we will not do so. Well, and nor do we want to fire at our brothers. But if this practice continues we will have to do things differently. I'll go back to the destruction of the helicopter as an example. We had the Kramatorsk airfield under observation for several days and had an opportunity to down helicopters carrying personnel. But we selected one which had only the crew on board ; it was a helicopter carrying munitions. We will try to continue operating in this way. But there's no guarantee that today, tomorrow, or the day after, ordinary soldiers might not suffer. [...]

 

[magellan]

You could also end the sentence with "at all", rather than pointing out the irrelevant military deployment who killed no one, as it happens.

McHrozni

You were saying?

 

[McHrozni]

Odessa has been extremely ugly. The Right Sektor hordes have shown up there and attacked an anti-Kiev crowd of relatively small size. Used a fire truck to break through some barricades and set fire to the trade union building were the crowd fled to. Several dead, jumping out of the windows. Still going on.

I guess you have an excuse for the rebellions in east Ukraine now. Clearly they were right to declare independence, take hostages and threaten, torture and murder those that disagree with them.

Odessa incident wasn't right, but it wasn't unexpected either. Some people will do terrible things if pushed too far. Putin has pushed too far. Deliberately, as to fabricate a pretext for invasion, I suspect. I expect more provocations to come, I hope not too many turn like Odessa.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

This morning around 5 am some forces listening to the putschists attacked Sloviansk and some other places in the east. The "government" are claiming to have "liberated" most of it, but there's a whole bunch of journalists on the ground who say otherwise. Two helicopters (likely fancy stuff like in the image below) admittedly shot down by the self-defense forces, they say a third one was just downed. Other than that, photos of people stopping tanks with their bare hands. One or the other injured in those attempts, some dead on both sides in shootings (mostly in the early morning, it seems).

Did the 'self-defense forces' receive MANPADs from Russia, or were they skilled enough to disable the Friend-or-Foe systems on captured Ukrainian systems? If the latter, how did they know what to do?

Don't bother searching for answers, both options mean exactly the same.

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

I guess you have an excuse for the rebellions in east Ukraine now. Clearly they were right to declare independence, take hostages and threaten, torture and murder those that disagree with them.

Odessa incident wasn't right, but it wasn't unexpected either. Some people will do terrible things if pushed too far. Putin has pushed too far. Deliberately, as to fabricate a pretext for invasion, I suspect. I expect more provocations to come, I hope not too many turn like Odessa.

McHrozni

Wow.
Putins powers are *so* awesome!
He mindcontrolled them into setting a building on fire!

Please remind me again how sending in the military (A clear violation of the geneva accord) didn't hurt anybody.
Could these guys do anything you wouldn't excuse?

Also: since everybody in military garb is controlled by putin, what about those guys in nevada? Some of their leaders have expressed admiration for putin even! Surely they must be russian speznaz too?

 

[McHrozni]

Wow.
Putins powers are *so* awesome!
He mindcontrolled them into setting a building on fire!

I never said anything that could be understood in that way. I understand why you need to set up straw men like these, but that doesn't mean I like it, or that it is any less pathetic.

Could these guys do anything you wouldn't excuse?

Sure. Machine gunning peaceful protesters, for one. There is a distinct lack of those in eastern Ukraine though.

Also: since everybody in military garb is controlled by putin, what about those guys in nevada? Some of their leaders have expressed admiration for putin even! Surely they must be russian speznaz too?

See first paragraph.

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

No of course you never said that!
It's not like you said putin pushed them into setting that building on fire, or anything.

Also: Tanks and helicopters are ok, but machineguns are a nono? Other types of guns are fine too? Interesting.

 

[McHrozni]

No of course you never said that!
It's not like you said putin pushed them into setting that building on fire, or anything.

No. I didn't. If you don't understand plain English that's your fault.

Also: Tanks and helicopters are ok, but machineguns are a nono? Other types of guns are fine too? Interesting.

I can explain that, but first you need to tell me which parts of the words "example" and "unarmed" are unclear to you. Once I know that it won't be a problem.

Of course if you do understand those two terms, you just set up another pathetic straw man. Congratulations, it really shows you have a great point where all you have to offer are logical fallacies.

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

Putin has pushed too far. Deliberately, as to fabricate a pretext for invasion, I suspect. I expect more provocations to come, I hope not too many turn like Odessa.

McHrozni

mhm

 

[McHrozni]

mhm

Do you have anything intelligent to say?

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

Do you still deny that you said putin pushed those guys in Odessa to set that building on fire?

 

[McHrozni]

Do you still deny that you said putin pushed those guys in Odessa to set that building on fire?

Yes, I do. Putin pushed them so far they began to push back. It is unfortunate that they chose to push back by setting that building on fire.

I really don't see how you can misconstruct this into "Putin pushed them into burning said building" without hallucinogens.

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

Yes, I do. Putin pushed them so far they began to push back. It is unfortunate that they chose to push back by setting that building on fire.
I really don't see how you can misconstruct this into "Putin pushed them into burning said building" without hallucinogens.

McHrozni

Putin pushed them so far they began to push back.
They chose to push back by burning that building.
Yet this doesn't mean that putin can be blamed for the situation.

 

[McHrozni]

Putin pushed them so far they began to push back.
They chose to push back by burning that building.
Yet this doesn't mean that putin can be blamed for the situation.

Blame for the situation rests squarely on Putin and his close vassals advisers. The majority of blame for this particular incident probably lies elsewhere, although Putin is far from blameless either. He fermented the situation into the frenzy it became.
Of course I give him the benefit of the doubt here. It is possible it was his agent provocateurs who set the building on fire. A small sacrifice of 40 loyalists to fabricate a caus belli for intervention would be par for the course for the ex-KGB agent.

Do I need to explain any of the above in any further detail, or will you stop trolling now?

McHrozni

 

[eirik]

Please remind me again how sending in the military (A clear violation of the geneva accord) didn't hurt anybody.

Please explain how that is a violation of the Geneva accord.