Top Gear racist remark (again)

[bluesjnr]

What was your "point"?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I am British and probably watch a lot more British TV than you and can't recall one single programme that dealt with American racism whilst claiming that Brits are not.

The only instance I can think of of this on TV is from Reginald D. Hunter on Have I Got News For You (coincidentally with James May):

 

[bluesjnr]

The only instance I can think of of this on TV is from Reginald D. Hunter on Have I Got News For You (coincidentally with James May)

And lets not forget that Reginald is American and we know how misinformed one or two of them can be with regard to racism in Britain.

 

[Klimax]

First, original discussion: Central Europe here. (For country, see flag in sig.)
For English word slope, never heard or seen used in racist way. For one things most of movies and other works were translated, second it would be most likely understood differently or not understood at all. (Wouldn't make sense as is)

When going into native language, it still wouldn't make sense. (Even with various morphing of native word) Closest one would get only with sloped eyes
alias slanted. It is mostly neutral to negative or maybe weakly racist.

I'd say, they should have stuck with just bridge and be done with that.
(Although that YT video looks strange, vintage-like. Were they referencing Vietnam?)

Second, this discussion is bit surreal, seemingly overrun by over the top political correctness in overdrive where some are twisting things beyond any recognition just to try cheap scoring (while not advancing anything good). Frankly, it is more nonsense and dancing then any valid point.
PC should be shot in the head and be done with. It just doesn't contribute anything good but poison and twisting nonsense. And wordplays... (This thread is best evidence for that)

Note: Never watched Top Gear or any local equivalent. (if there is one, most I saw were closer to journalistic side)

 

[colander]

Do you honestly think that the rhyme was chosen primarily because it contained the word in question?

Would it be the first time he's done such a thing?

Body of work, my friend.

 

[colander]

You failed to answer my question regarding your assertion and instead posed a ridiculous question to me. I don't know any black people and they are very scarce where I live (there are none) so I can't engage in your social experiment.

I guess that explains some things. It'd be nice if you had the grace to recognize your perspective is perhaps not the most useful, informed or relevant one to consider when discussing whether it makes sense for anybody else to have a problem with using such words while filming a nationally broadcast television show aired in a country which has many black people in it.

Would you care to answer my question now?



Taking into account that no employee has claimed a hostile working environment exists (unless you know better as you are awfully well informed about the machinations and inner workings of Top Gear) one can only assume that things are not quite as bad as you would wish in order to shore up your premise.

I don't think we can assume that at all, considering that we haven't yet excluded the possibility that there are no more black people working on the set of Top Gear than there are wherever you live. Another reason your assumption makes little sense is that the very fact that the footage was leaked to the public at all suggests that someone in the know is a bit tired of working with this fellow.

 

[bluesjnr]

I guess that explains some things. It'd be nice if you had the grace to recognize your perspective is perhaps not the most useful, informed or relevant one to consider when discussing whether it makes sense for anybody else to have a problem with using such words while filming a nationally broadcast television show aired in a country which has many black people in it.

It is incredible just how presumptuous you are. I have lived and worked in Thailand, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Dubai and Qatar. I have visited for extended periods China, United States, USSR (as was), Russia and all of Western Europe. I have witnessed racism, bigotry and sexism first hand. I have lived and worked in countries that criminalise same sex relationships, that actively discriminate against women and openly abuse minorities with the full encouragement of the system. Don't dare condescend to me with regard to how useful, informed or relevant my opinion is.

I don't think we can assume that at all, considering that we haven't yet excluded the possibility that there are no more black people working on the set of Top Gear than there are wherever you live. Another reason your assumption makes little sense is that the very fact that the footage was leaked to the public at all suggests that someone in the know is a bit tired of working with this fellow.

You instruct me on what I can and cannot assume yet go on to pile up more assumptions and "suggestions". You are the one that claimed no black people have been hired to work on Top Gear in order to shore up your efforts to be all PC - you need to prove that. Furthermore, you need to prove your new claim that "someone is tired of working with this fellow".

You've knitted a narrative out of three out-takes. How far are you willing to go with this story and how "useful, informed or relevant" do you think your fantasy is?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Do you honestly think that the rhyme was chosen primarily because it contained the word in question?

Though I generally think the criticism is overblown, I *do* think he chose the rhyme because of the word. Not because he specifically wanted to use a rhyme with a racist word, any "naughty"/swear word would have done. He was trying to get a bit of a laugh out of self-censorship. It probably would have worked if there was a nursery rhyme which inadvertently contained a different swear word, but there aren't any. I see it as similar to if he had decided to repeatedly use the town Scunthorpe as an example, and had them bleep the word out because of the rude word it contains. But because the n-word is not just a swear word, but also a racist one, it was seen (by Clarkson, or whoever makes the decisions about the content of the show) as too close to the line, so they went with the other take.

 

[zooterkin]

I guess that explains some things. It'd be nice if you had the grace to recognize your perspective is perhaps not the most useful, informed or relevant one

Perhaps you should consider that yours isn't, either, when understanding all the factors.

The meanings and associations of words are determined by the society they are used in. The world in the 1960s was a much different place from today, and many of the associations of the n-word in America were not present in the UK at that time. We didn't have a significant minority of descendants of slaves, we didn't have segregation (in fact, wartime experiences of black soldiers in Britain during and after the war were one of the factors that fed into the civil rights movement, as the local populations often would not stand for the attempts by the US military to impose segregation in pubs, for example). For the majority of children using the "eeny meeny" counting rhyme, the n-word might just as well have been a nonsense word (I didn't attend a school with a non-white pupil in until the 70s). From today's perspective, it is easy to be aghast at it being used in so casual a way, but the word wasn't being used as a put-down on a daily basis for a significant portion of the population, as it was at the time in the US. I'm not denying that there was racism, and there were some people from racial minorities who would have suffered from it, but that one word in the rhyme was not exactly indoctrinating children to regard non-whites as inferior (however, if you really want to blow your mind, go looking on youtube for The Black and White Minstrel Show which was broadcast on the BBC until 1978).

Let's be clear; I'm not saying we should be able to use the word freely when we like. I'm not claiming it's "political correctness gone mad" that I can't recite a rhyme from my childhood without thinking very hard about the context and who I'm talking to. From a purely skeptical point of view, I'd like to say we can use any word we like, because they are just words, but that is to ignore the very real associations that they have.

And it's those associations that have changed, from the UK perspective, because of changes to the make up of society here and because of increased globalisation and social awareness, that mean that word is not acceptable now, even in a nonsense rhyme. Whatever you (and I) may feel now, the rhyme was acceptable then, in the UK, when I and Clarkson were growing up. And it would have been that version, whatever alternatives with substitute words have arisen in the meantime.

Now, to the actual situation; I find it highly plausible that Clarkson came to the conclusion that the two cars being tested were indistinguishable, and that you might as well choose at random. It is quite common in such a situation, in the UK, for someone start counting "Eeny, meeny, miney, mo..." He could have stopped there, of course, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. On the other hand, it's a bit of a weak ending for a punch line on a TV programme, as opposed to in a private conversation, so he chose to go on.

He could have used one of the substitute versions; that, too, might have avoided controversy, but it might not have occurred to him, and he might not have been immediately aware of what the alternative versions were. So, he went with the version he knew, but did not articulate the words. Personally, I think he was partly making fun of the embarrassment felt by people of our age in exactly that situation. Others seem to think he set out from the start to find some excuse to use the word; I find that implausible (I have spoken to a couple of people who have worked with Clarkson, and they have seen no indications of him being some sort of monster behind the scenes. In fact, he's apparently very nice, which is a bit annoying for those of us who want to dislike him based on his espousal of certain views).

It was then decided that, in context, the mumbling sounded sufficiently like the actual word that it could still give offence, so they changed to use a completely different word for the broadcast version.

I do get it that some people think he said the word. I disagree, but I can understand why they might think that. I don't think you'd recognise the word, as he said it, in isolation and without knowing what it was supposed to be; but in context, knowing what the word should be, it's very hard not to hear it (which is what pareidolia is all about, too. Having been told what to listen for, I can't not hear Freddie Mercury singing "It's fun to smoke marijuana" when listening to "Another One Bites the Dust" backwards. I also know I didn't hear it the first time, before being told what to hear.) Given the expectation, since everyone (over a certain age, at least) knows the rhyme, I'd say it was near impossible to make any two-syllable sound at the right point and not have at least some people swearing they heard him say the word. That's not a criticism, it's an observation on the way our brains work.

to consider when discussing whether it makes sense for anybody else to have a problem with using such words while filming a nationally broadcast television show aired in a country which has many black people in it.

That'll be why he didn't actually say the word at any point, and why he used a completely different word in the version of the programme that was actually broadcast.

 

[zooterkin]

Though I generally think the criticism is overblown, I *do* think he chose the rhyme because of the word. Not because he specifically wanted to use a rhyme with a racist word, any "naughty"/swear word would have done. He was trying to get a bit of a laugh out of self-censorship. It probably would have worked if there was a nursery rhyme which inadvertently contained a different swear word, but there aren't any. I see it as similar to if he had decided to repeatedly use the town Scunthorpe as an example, and had them bleep the word out because of the rude word it contains. But because the n-word is not just a swear word, but also a racist one, it was seen (by Clarkson, or whoever makes the decisions about the content of the show) as too close to the line, so they went with the other take.

I think I agree (I've just touched on a similar point in my mammoth (for me) post above), at least partly. I don't recall the full programme; would he have set out to do a joke on self-censorship, and searched for a rhyme to do it with? I can certainly see that if, as I suggested, he started with "Eeny meeny..." as appropriate for the situation (having to chose between two similar cars) that when he realised the opportunity for that joke, that he wouldn't give it up.

 

[Nessie]

Top Gear is a comedy programme about three middle aged men who love cars, do some reviews and have daft, lads, road trips. Here is a BBC article looking at its more controversial moments.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27255690

 

[angrysoba]

I do get it that some people think he said the word. I disagree, but I can understand why they might think that. I don't think you'd recognise the word, as he said it, in isolation and without knowing what it was supposed to be; but in context, knowing what the word should be, it's very hard not to hear it (which is what pareidolia is all about, too. Having been told what to listen for, I can't not hear Freddie Mercury singing "It's fun to smoke marijuana" when listening to "Another One Bites the Dust" backwards. I also know I didn't hear it the first time, before being told what to hear.) Given the expectation, since everyone (over a certain age, at least) knows the rhyme, I'd say it was near impossible to make any two-syllable sound at the right point and not have at least some people swearing they heard him say the word. That's not a criticism, it's an observation on the way our brains work.

I think this is incorrect.

Pareidolia is a different phenomenon to what you are talking about here. If I said that I can see a picture of Mohammed on Jeremy Clarkson's shirt, and claimed he deliberately put it there to offend 1 billion Muslims then you would be right. And the stuff about Freddie Mercury is also not parallel as there was never any intention to put that phrase in the song nor for Revolution 9 to reveal that Paul was dead with the phrase "Turn Me On, Dead Man". Mondegreens such as Jimi Hendrix asking to be excused while he kisses this guy, are not actually put there in the song, but in this case Clarkson is deliberately using the nursery rhyme with the n-word in it. It's not at all similar to the idea of hearing something that was never there in the first place. Even he heard himself say it when he played it back.

I'm not making any other point other than the fact that he blatantly used the word, then angrily denied it only to be shown up as a bit silly later on when the video turned up.

 

[colander]

These ridiculous "but he mumbled it!" apologia puts me in mind of the children's pastime wherein insults are spelled out to the intended target so the speller can truthfully tell the teacher that he didn't say any bad words.

Of course, the teacher usually didn't usually buy it, so I suppose it's not a precise parallel.

 

[eirik]

This is one of the most pretentious threads in this forum. Honestly, who cares if he said something stupid. Go complain about Louis CK or almost any other comedian if you really want to be the white knight protecting society from "edgy" humor. He made a mistake, apologized, who cares.

 

[s_pepys]

This is one of the most pretentious threads in this forum. Honestly, who cares if he said something stupid. Go complain about Louis CK or almost any other comedian if you really want to be the white knight protecting society from "edgy" humor. He made a mistake, apologized, who cares.

Stewart Lee used the n word on bbc 2 a few weeks back. No one batted an eyelid. As he hadalready been mentioned in this thread and os the polar opposite of clarkson. I thought id mention it.

 

[angrysoba]

This is one of the most pretentious threads in this forum. Honestly, who cares if he said something stupid. Go complain about Louis CK or almost any other comedian if you really want to be the white knight protecting society from "edgy" humor. He made a mistake, apologized, who cares.

Who cares?

He does. If he didn't care, he would have admitted it.

He apologized?

For what did he apologize? For something he never done. Apparently.

But here we go again, some guy is making excuses that Clarkson himself is not making.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Stewart Lee used the n word on bbc 2 a few weeks back. No one batted an eyelid. As he hadalready been mentioned in this thread and os the polar opposite of clarkson. I thought id mention it.

He's allowed to; he's got an imaginary black wife.

 

[s_pepys]

He's allowed to; he's got an imaginary black wife.

Lmao.

 

[angrysoba]

I wonder if some supporters of Clarkson's use of the n-word feel a bit like Mark Corrigan when he tries to rationalize Daryl's behaviour:

 

[bluesjnr]

I wonder if some supporters of Clarkson's use of the n-word feel a bit like Mark Corrigan when he tries to rationalize Daryl's behaviour

I haven't re-read the entire thread and don't intend to but I'm not getting the feeling that some respondents are "supporters" of the use of that word by Clarkson or any body else. Where do you see this?

I get the feeling that people are making the point that what has happened since the out-take was unearthed is out of proportion to the "crime" committed. That's just my take of course and I'd genuinely like to know why you get the impression that people are supporting the use of the offending word.

It occurs to me that you might be referring to events outside this forum, is that the case?