Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Pixel42]

I do not think the medium had any way of knowing I was even an art student, let alone that I had done a blue and white painting a few days before.

All I can say is that for a former art student you appear to have a very poor imagination.

Was there really nothing about your age and appearance that screamed "student"? As for the type, just how many science or engineering students, or even history students, do you think visit spiritualist churches? Are you absolutely sure there were no specks of blue and white paint on your hands or clothes?

If someone visits mediums regularly all of whom make astute guesses based purely on what they can see, what percentage are going to make the right astute guess? If they were really getting the information from your deceased relatives every single one would be surprisingly accurate, not just a few.

And that's all assuming no research whatsoever, not even talking to the other members or overhearing a conversation in the ladies loo ("that dreamy art student is here again, you know the one with the [describes you])".

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Scorpion,

So, souls can grow older if one dies young, and younger if one dies old?

Apparently in line with physical aging (or it's inverse), in line enough that the aged soul of a departed young person can develop physical characteristics to compare to another human being.

1) Why would a soul need any semblance to a corporeal being?

2) If a soul "exists", have you given any thought at all to the nature of its existence?

Do you see it as "energy", "field", material, or some other unknown "thing"*.

In any case, until you can articulate some proposed mechanism for your ideas, they really will remain idle and unfounded speculation to most critically thinking individuals. "Just so" stories, as it were.

That's clearly enough for a huge slice of humanity. So you're not alone.


*If any of the first three things listed, we seem to know enough about them that we should be able to detect them.

 

[Scorpion]

Scorpion,

So, souls can grow older if one dies young, and younger if one dies old?

Apparently in line with physical aging (or it's inverse), in line enough that the aged soul of a departed young person can develop physical characteristics to compare to another human being.

1) Why would a soul need any semblance to a corporeal being?

2) If a soul "exists", have you given any thought at all to the nature of its existence?

Do you see it as "energy", "field", material, or some other unknown "thing"*.

In any case, until you can articulate some proposed mechanism for your ideas, they really will remain idle and unfounded speculation to most critically thinking individuals. "Just so" stories, as it were.

That's clearly enough for a huge slice of humanity. So you're not alone.


*If any of the first three things listed, we seem to know enough about them that we should be able to detect them.

Theosophy teaches that our ultimate body is called the soul, or causual body.
It is a formless bubble of divine energy that separates us from God, and it is expandable, so can contain infinite memories. (But don't ask me how)
But we need a form to operate through so we have lower bodies, called the mental and the astral. Then we have the physical body during incarnations.

Between lives we inhabit higher planes of existence that have all kinds of environments like countryside and cities. I have heard it said that the astral plane is as real as Charring Cross.

 

[Scorpion]

If someone visits mediums regularly all of whom make astute guesses based purely on what they can see, what percentage are going to make the right astute guess? If they were really getting the information from your deceased relatives every single one would be surprisingly accurate, not just a few.

I put it down to, that some mediums are better than others, just like some healers are more powerful than others. I could feel the healing energy from some healers, but nothing from others.

However I will admit that I had dissapointing results from two so called psychic artists. I went to the late Coral Polge three times, and she drew three pictures of people I did not recognize. Then I went to Ivor Mariants, another so called psychic artist and he totally blew it. He drew a picture of a japanese man that he said was a spirit guide, and then he wrote some supposed japanese writing on it. I took it to the japanese embassy to have it translated and they said it was not japanese writing. They even said it might be someone pretending to write japanese. So I have had experiences of fake mediums.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

With no absolute proof, belief is a matter of faith.

Is it your contention, then, that people's behaviour is only limited by what they know for certain to be true? That people's behaviour is never limited by faith? Furthermore, is it your contention that nobody would claim to know for sure that God exists, or that they have absolute proof of his existence?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I have heard it said that the astral plane is as real as Charring Cross.

I've heard it said that Katie Price is a really good singer.

 

[Scorpion]

Is it your contention, then, that people's behaviour is only limited by what they know for certain to be true? That people's behaviour is never limited by faith? Furthermore, is it your contention that nobody would claim to know for sure that God exists, or that they have absolute proof of his existence?

No.

 

[Pixel42]

I put it down to, that some mediums are better than others, just like some healers are more powerful than others.

The question is are mediums better than would be expected if they were just making astute guesses, supplemented by the occasional luckily (or surreptitiously) obtained fact. For the hit rate you describe the answer is clearly no. So that's what you should be putting it down to.

 

[Scorpion]

So are you convinced that ESP exists, or are unsure?

I have doubted everything in recent years, but the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

It is a formless bubble of divine energy that separates us from God, and it is expandable, so can contain infinite memories. (But don't ask me how)
But we need a form to operate through so we have lower bodies, called the mental and the astral. Then we have the physical body during incarnations.

Between lives we inhabit higher planes of existence that have all kinds of environments like countryside and cities. I have heard it said that the astral plane is as real as Charring Cross.

Sorry, Scorpion.

There's a pretty derogatory term floating around out there: Word Salad*.

I hesitate to use it, but it's the overall impression I get from your response.

"Formless bubble of divine energy" is quite devoid of meaning, with all it's major concepts undefined. As is "astral plane", "higher planes of existence", "incarnations".

Charring Cross exists in the real world in a manner that "astral plane" clearly does not. Regardless of what you've "heard it said". If you do not have the critical thinking tools to know the difference, you're in the right place. But you must open your mind to what people are saying here, not just repeating what others have told you.

If we're reduced to responding to every little bit of woo that you've heard said, then the conversation has become trivially uninteresting. Millions of sites exist to read about the kind of things you're positing here, with zero foundation. That's where I would be if I was interested in that sort if thing. Which, unless and until said positions have something evidential to support them, I'm not.

I will probably continue to monitor this thread for anything interesting, but I honestly have little hope for that.

Good luck with your belief system.


*I think this link exemplifies how Word Salad can seem superficially meaningful:
http://www.wisdomofchopra.com

 

[tsig]

With no absolute proof, belief is a matter of faith.

It would seem that by even telling these anecdotes you are defying gods' will.

 

[The Shrike]

. . . we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.

At least in the Judeo-Christian tradition, God goes out of his way to convince us that there is a spirit world (short of anything actually tangible, of course) precisely so that we will live our lives afraid of what he might do to us in retaliation for our indiscretions.

 

[Pixel42]

I have doubted everything in recent years, but the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.

If ESP existed you would not need to feel it, because it could be easily demonstrated.

None of the experiences you have so far shared come within a country mile of justifying the conclusion that ESP exists.

 

[dlorde]

... I went to Ivor Mariants, another so called psychic artist and he totally blew it. He drew a picture of a japanese man that he said was a spirit guide, and then he wrote some supposed japanese writing on it. I took it to the japanese embassy to have it translated and they said it was not japanese writing. They even said it might be someone pretending to write japanese. So I have had experiences of fake mediums.

So one rare seemingly concrete and verifiable fact from a 'psychic' turns out to be fake...

For critical thinkers, this raises concerns and confirms suspicions.

If Mariants really believed it was Japanese, it shows how badly overconfident belief can make people - he clearly hadn't confirmed for himself it was Japanese writing. He's unlikely to be unique, which would suggest that other mediums are likely to be wrongly confident they actually receive messages.

If Mariants was deliberately faking it, it shows just how confident he was that the marks would believe it without checking. That he picked Japanese - a language the English-speaking mark was unlikely to know, rather than a European language, suggests to me that he knew it was bull.

This also reinforces why mediums tend to give vague Barnum statements that are given specific meaning by the mark.

 

[Scorpion]

"Formless bubble of divine energy" is quite devoid of meaning, with all it's major concepts undefined. As is "astral plane", "higher planes of existence", "incarnations".

What I have said makes sense to me. Mind you I have distilled my views from amalgamating ideas of theosphy, and ideas of spiritualism. Things I have heard at many trance lectures, and spiritualist meetings. Plus extracting ideas from occult books, of which I have a small library. Here is a link to a book on the causal body, which is obscure and complicated. Maybe you will think it is all word salad, and maybe it is.

http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/UserFiles/en/File/pdf/Arthur_E_Powell_-_The_Causal_Body___The_Ego.pdf

 

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
. . . we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.

At least in the Judeo-Christian tradition, God goes out of his way to convince us that there is a spirit world (short of anything actually tangible, of course) precisely so that we will live our lives afraid of what he might do to us in retaliation for our indiscretions.

Exactly; I can't imagine that the knowledge that god "is looking over our shoulders" would have any more effect on believers' behavior (for good or bad) than their faith already does; for them, the two things are equivalent. How many times have you had someone proselytizing for their religion tell you "this isn't what I believe is true, it's what I know is true"?

 

[dlorde]

... the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.

This is how episodic memory works; each time you recall a memory, it is modified afresh by your predilections, beliefs, opinions, etc., about the event. In this way, memories increasingly come to match and support your beliefs about how the events occurred and/or what they meant.

This is how old friends coming together can remember joint past episodes quite differently, even to the extent of which of them was the protagonist in some situation, but will generally come to an agreed version before parting with a revised memory.

If you want to discover the reality of psychics and mediums, memories are an unreliable source of information; look to the future. Approach readings and other sessions with skepticism, count the number of misses, count the accurate hits, treat generalities as irrelevant, don't give them clues, don't accept responsibility of finding some appropriate meaning for statements, question how specific facts might have been obtained. If they're really getting messages from the beyond, there should be no doubt at all about it, else what's the point?

If you feel some reluctance to take this approach, or it feels unfair, or an unwarranted test, ask yourself why you feel this way - if they can do what they say, they'll sail through your skepticism and demonstrate their powers beyond doubt. Many members of these forums have been through this process and discovered just how easily their trust and willingness to believe had been taken advantage of, and how what had seemed amazing knowledge of other realms turned out to be patter for the gullible.

The real universe around us is far more amazing than the frothy fantasies of spiritualism, and it's demonstrable and verifiable any time, on demand.

 

[George]

I think it unlikely that anyone else here has as much experience of psychic mediums as I have.

Then I went to Ivor Mariants, another so called psychic artist and he totally blew it. He drew a picture of a japanese man that he said was a spirit guide, and then he wrote some supposed japanese writing on it. I took it to the japanese embassy to have it translated and they said it was not japanese writing. They even said it might be someone pretending to write japanese. So I have had experiences of fake mediums.

I note you used worldly means to debunk this character, your vast experience of psychic mediums was of no value here.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

No.

Right. So if people knowing about the spiritual plane is harmful to them because it may restrict their behaviour, then your telling people about the spiritual plane can be harmful to them if they believe you and therefore limit their behaviour.

If what you've said is true about spiritual progression, then the whole of existence would be a much better place if everybody was an atheist who didn't believe in life after death. That would allow people to progress further and faster.

 

[I Ratant]

It would seem that by even telling these anecdotes you are defying gods' will.

.
Gots to be careful doing that.
One of them said he is a jealous god, but others are probably also.
Faith in god1234 can be held against you when it's god5678 you meet in the spirit world!