Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[codyjuneau]

I think glass outside the building would be unexpected. Remember the ledge is wide. Rudy threw this rock with adrenaline fuelled force, with the accuracy of the skilled amateur basketballer that he is. When he pulled the shutter closed to conceal his activity, the glass all lined up.
The glass fragment is embedded with velocity remote from the timber, no pushing action could ever replicate this. Practical people from downunder see this quite intuitively

.
I think it is possible that the solid inside shutter being blasted open by the rock creates a momentary vacum which would also influence the path of the falling glass. Some modern day Galileo could test it.
.

 

[Dan O.]

DANO- Are these both references to the Nov 3 crimes scene tapes?

Yes. Those records were collected from the fragments that Became public durring or just after the first trial. The first numbers are the timestamps from the tape, the later reference is from the source where the fragment was found. The tape times are off by an hour according to Stephi.

 

[Bill Williams]

Re: the damage the fake Wiki is doing and the lies it is telling.

The fake, Edward McCall wiki is the source for an otherwise respected British journalist writing that Amanda also accused Lumumba to her mother, in a secretly recorded police tape.

Sigh.

What I don't understand is that if the pair's guilt is so obvious, why do folk see to need just to make things up?

Like Nencini?

 

[acbytesla]

For the first highlite, did Rudy know the area, I provide a quote from Candice Dempsey's book, suggesting the cottage wasn't visible, and not well known even among Perugians. The second highlite, is a great question. Extremely coincidental, but there is so much odd coincidence in this case. Police and Mignini confusion isn't out of the question for me, but not admitting mistakes that are obvious is unforgivable.

Rudy and the Phones -

I think the Rudy's reasons for taking the phones is that he steals phones, like he stole the phone from the Perugian lawyer's office 2 weeks earlier. And after stealing them, realizes they could connect him to a murder and tosses them. Notice though the phone are used to try to access Meredith's bank, although I believe its reported (MMK.com?) that its was the first number in her contacts. (Also, not sure about this though, but it fits Rudy behavior; taking the phones prevents Meredith for calling for help. He knows she's incapacitated, and probably can't walk. But in case she can somehow get to her phone and dial, he takes the precaution to delay discovery as long as possible.

Cottage not well known -

"About a half mile uphill from the cottage, it appeared on the map on Via Sperandio, but was actually on Via Andrea de Perugia, near an early Christian church built on a former pagan temple. Towering tress and thick bushes concealed the property from the road. In fact even many Perugini didn't know there was a house behind all that shrubbery." (at Pg 51, C.Dempsey, Murder in Italy).

Precisely. If you went to Google Maps and Streetview on the street running alongside Lana's home and garden, you would understand that you can't see anything of either. It is well below the road and there is a 6 foot high embankment alongside the road It truly looks like nothing is there but brush.

 

[Grinder]

Cite? I didn't think so.

Meanwhile lets totally discount this guy. "Bartender Christian Tremontano is awaked in the middle of the night by someone in his apartment. He goes downstairs to find Rudy Guede walking through his apartment going through his things. First, Rudy holds a chair up against Christian, then he pulls a knife from his pocket and threatens him. Finally, he flees the scene. Christian reports the break in to police officer, Monica Napoleoni. She asks him to come in to the police station to file an official complaint. Later, when Christian arrives at the police station, the line is too long and he gives up the idea considering he hadn't been injured and nothing had been stolen. He later sees Rudy at two bars. Incredibly, one is the bar where he works as a bartender and he has him thrown out by the bouncer."

Also where is it made clear that Guede only had the one knife in Milan? You are guessing about these things. I can guess too. I say Guede had 5 knives in his possession and since we have no access to the police report I am right and you are wrong! Besides the vehicle hammer has a cutter for seat belts on it too...so that's 6 knives.

And don't start with that apple crisp stuff...do they even grow apples where you live?

The woman from the nursery listed out what was found including the little hammer. You can create a knife that didn't make the list if you wish. CT's story did include pulling a knife from his pocket. That is the only reference to Rudi having any sort of weapon. I do find it somewhat odd that after he allegedly recognized Rudi in a club he didn't bother to file a report at that time.

What is your source that CT reported it to the head of the homicide?

The contention was that Rudi was known to carry a weapon and this is based entirely on the CT incident.

You're not getting your info from a true crime novel are you?

I tried to find the source of the quote and found this:

I pass along the following post from the Injustice in Perugia forum…

RUDY GUEDE’S CRIME SPREE

by Julie Jorgensen

SEPTEMBER 27, 2007 – PERUGIA

Bartender Christian Tremontano is awaked in the middle of the night by an intruder in his apartment. He goes downstairs to find Rudy Guede going through his things. Rudy holds a chair up against Christian, then pulls a knife and threatens him. Christian unlocks the door and allows him to escape.

Christian reports the break-in to police officer Monica Napoleoni. She asks him to come in to the police station to file an official complaint. Christian goes to the police station two or three times but the line is always very long. Eventually he gives up the idea of filing a complaint since he hadn’t been injured and nothing had been stolen. He later sees Rudy at two bars. Incredibly, one is the bar where he works as a bartender, and he has Rudy thrown out by the bouncer.
​

 

[Chris_Halkides]

11 November

The fake, Edward McCall wiki is the source for an otherwise respected British journalist writing that Amanda also accused Lumumba to her mother, in a secretly recorded police tape.

Bill,

Do you have a link? This lie (perhaps a deliberate twisting of something Amanda said) is easily refuted. Edda Mellas and Amanda talked in a bugged conversation. On 11 November, Edda told reporters that Amanda was not at the cottage that night (Dempsey, p. 209).

 

[Grinder]

I was discussing the case with someone on Facebook and she kept telling me C-V had been 'refuted' but could not explain how. I concluded she must have meant 'rejected' because I have not seen any reversal of the findings set out in their report. I have not seen or heard of the evidence that shows they were wrong when they recorded 36B tested negative for blood and humans etc was negative for quantification (contrary to Stef's evidence) not amplified in a way that made sense etc etc etc

I know Conti-Vechiotti are very bad people who were bribed and that she, particularly, felt bitchy towards Stef and so on, but what happened to these facts? Was the Carabinieri's test on 36I in reality a kind of symbolic thing like the priest turning wine into the blood of Our Saviour? Did it mean, 'there! Those sloppy independent experts! We finished their work for them and now they can be consigned to eternal ignominy and damnation. May the priestess Patrizia resume her rightful place on her plinth.'

What happened to the facts?

The C&V report must be mentioned by the RIS which would mean that in some way it still exists in the trial file.

 

[Grinder]

Take it up with the AK and RS wiki site...here is the cite... See what I did there?

Under the date 27 Sept 2007.

http://amanda-knox.wikispaces.com/Rudy+Guede


Full disclosure...I am not a member there. I have no time to research who operates or owns this wiki. For all I know it may be Dr Mull or AK ans RS or God (that crazy guy in Toronto)

It is not the first time I have heard about the bartender speaking to Nipolini though...maybe she dances there part time?

Not much of a source. It seems all to come from this Julie Jorgensen woman. This is how these urban legends get going.

See how that works? At least you didn't cite Patrick King or K-Pea.

 

[Grinder]

I think glass outside the building would be unexpected. Remember the ledge is wide. Rudy threw this rock with adrenaline fuelled force, with the accuracy of the skilled amateur basketballer that he is. When he pulled the shutter closed to conceal his activity, the glass all lined up.The glass fragment is embedded with velocity remote from the timber, no pushing action could ever replicate this. Practical people from downunder see this quite intuitively

Unwittingly you have undone the theory that the glass at lawyer being arranged was the same MO

 

[carbonjam72]

Google Maps!! But When?

Precisely. If you went to Google Maps and Streetview on the street running alongside Lana's home and garden, you would understand that you can't see anything of either. It is well below the road and there is a 6 foot high embankment alongside the road It truly looks like nothing is there but brush.

Great idea to use google maps to view the locales. Trouble is, we don' know when the google survey was done, and there may have been changes before or after the google views were captured. But old growth and old landmarks recorded after the crime, are very likely to give a similar, but I would strain my eyes over finding minute elements. As a general guide, great idea.

 

[Grinder]

carbonjam72 , The temperature of the body is rendered totally irrelevant by the stomach contents. She was dead at 9pm or shortly after, though I realise this is not the point you are making, as they could not know that at that time.

You just keep repeating this and it isn't known. There are far too many variables that have not been established. It is not known when she began eating nor what she ate.

If she waited until the apple crisp came out at 7:45 or 8 then 9:30 or ten is not in any way out of the question.

I doubt that had they taken the temperature immediately that the TOD would be narrowed to a time range that would make any difference. They didn't know when the duvet was put on, they didn't know what the ambient temperature was inside (was the heat on or was the door open) and more.

It is highly unusual for the exact time to be so important.

 

[acbytesla]

It certainly has bothered me a great deal. The interrogation got in through the back door.

It didn't just get in through the back door, it stayed like an unwelcome guest. Supposedly this is for the civil case and the judges are supposed to ignore it in reference to the criminal case, yet Nencini has referenced them in the criminal motivations? Say what?? Either they are admissible or they aren't. It's The Supreme Court says to the world that in principle these are important rights and then flat out ignores these rights in practice.

 

[anglolawyer]

I did not think of this, it was someone else's observation.

Why does Nencini believe Rudy Guede when Guede says that he overheard Meredith and Amanda arguing over money.....

.... but not believe Guede when he says it was Meredith who had let him in? Why have Amanda there at all, if Meredith and Rudy were on such good terms so that they could even (acc. to Rudy) discuss intimacies?

Look how the case against Knox/Sollecito has evolved, all in the direction of eventually absolving Rudy:

- Knox alone in kitchen covering her ears while Lumumba is killing Meredith
- Lumumba, Knox, Sollecito killing Meredith in a ritualistic rite
- Guede, Knox, Sollecito killing in a sex-game gone wrong - at first it was consensual
- Guede initiating lust-fueled attack on Meredith, in which Knox/Sollecito uncharacteristically join in, in a "choice for evil" (Massei)
- We don't know what happened, except that it happened with Knox directing things from the hall (Mignini at Hellmann trial, to explain no presence of Knox in bedroom)
- Hellmann is quashed by ISC because sex-game gone wrong is not properly examined or discounted
- Guede now passively takes a dump, tension escalates between Knox and Meredith (Crini)
- Guede uninvolved, on toilet while argument over rent money causes Knox to weld a knife.
​

Nencini finally gets around to believing Rudy Guede.

All theorists pick and choose what to believe of Guede.

 

[Grinder]

Actually I said they weren't there. I guess I could add they were too far away to hear the scream, so it couldn't be a motive for them to do anything.

You know, motive can be more important than all the actual evidence combined. Just ask a guy who was having a hot affair with a younger woman and took out a large life insurance policy on his wife the week before she was found murdered. If he didn't have a 100% ironclad alibi, you'll have to talk to him during visiting hours, though...

Innocent or they weren't there mean exactly the same thing. You are stuck in circular reasoning (using a polite word).

Of course the classic life insurance just taken out or the will changed a day before the "accidental" death are suspicious. Of course if there is a clear motive in any crime it makes the case easier but without evidence motive isn't enough and with enough evidence motive isn't needed.

No matter how this murder came down it didn't make sense or need a motive.

They didn't prove guilt BRD and that's all that matters.

 

[Grinder]

The thing I have never understood is why it took so long to do the luminal testing. Wouldn't test results be skewed after that much time passed?

Two things have been suggested over time. One is that the defense needed to be consulted once they were in jail arrested and the other is that bleach will block out the results until it dissipates.

Blood in particular will be there for a very long time and that's what they were looking for after all. One of the reasons I've asked about TMB versus Luminol is that it seems to me the one foot Luminol prints could be from very old very diluted blood. This is a way to lower the precision of this CE.

 

[Grinder]

I would exclude all results gathered on 18 December. I told a former police officer whose job it was to secure crime scenes about this case. His first words were, "contaminated, contaminated." Reporting on the Patrick Waring case Estelle Blackburn wrote, “In court, police conceded they had not followed best practice in the case. Various officers said that the Central Park scene was left unguarded from 1.25am on the night, it was a week before it was searched, and the same officers had visited the homes of the girl and the accused which allowed for contamination of evidence.” What is not best practice in Perth is not best practice in Perugia.

Really in reference to the Luminol prints he said contaminated?

 

[Planigale]

One thing to keep a careful eye on is the argument that the isolated footprint on the bath mat means that there had to be cleaning up of evidence because otherwise there should be other footprints. If no Luminol was used in the small bathroom how do they know there are no other footprints?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill,

Do you have a link? This lie (perhaps a deliberate twisting of something Amanda said) is easily refuted. Edda Mellas and Amanda talked in a bugged conversation. On 11 November, Edda told reporters that Amanda was not at the cottage that night (Dempsey, p. 209).

The sole source that I know for this, "Knox confessed to her mother" lie is the McCall wiki, which apparently Ergon is now editing.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-amanda-knox-guilty-behind-scenes-meredith-kercher-murder-verdict-1434677

The American even told the same story, accusing Lumumba to her mother, during a private conversation.​

They just make things up.

 

[Grinder]

One thing to keep a careful eye on is the argument that the isolated footprint on the bath mat means that there had to be cleaning up of evidence because otherwise there should be other footprints. If no Luminol was used in the small bathroom how do they know there are no other footprints?

Not only that but Rudi could have had blood on his pants as he said he did and went to the bathroom with no blood on that shoe bottom, removed the shoe and washed off his pants in the bidet (or shower Dan O.) and then put the foot down on the mat with still watery blood on it.

They should have been able to see the footprints without Luminol if he stepped on the mat after walking down the hall. Certainly it is also posible that he wiped away the prints he saw and no swirls were seen because no Luminol used.

 

[carbonjam72]

Guede & prior burglaries with knives - Milan Nursery

The woman from the nursery listed out what was found including the little hammer. You can create a knife that didn't make the list if you wish. CT's story did include pulling a knife from his pocket. That is the only reference to Rudi having any sort of weapon. I do find it somewhat odd that after he allegedly recognized Rudi in a club he didn't bother to file a report at that time.

What is your source that CT reported it to the head of the homicide?

The contention was that Rudi was known to carry a weapon and this is based entirely on the CT incident.

You're not getting your info from a true crime novel are you?

I tried to find the source of the quote and found this:

I pass along the following post from the Injustice in Perugia forum…

RUDY GUEDE’S CRIME SPREE

by Julie Jorgensen

SEPTEMBER 27, 2007 – PERUGIA

Bartender Christian Tremontano is awaked in the middle of the night by an intruder in his apartment. He goes downstairs to find Rudy Guede going through his things. Rudy holds a chair up against Christian, then pulls a knife and threatens him. Christian unlocks the door and allows him to escape.

Christian reports the break-in to police officer Monica Napoleoni. She asks him to come in to the police station to file an official complaint. Christian goes to the police station two or three times but the line is always very long. Eventually he gives up the idea of filing a complaint since he hadn’t been injured and nothing had been stolen. He later sees Rudy at two bars. Incredibly, one is the bar where he works as a bartender, and he has Rudy thrown out by the bouncer.
​

It's hard to get these references because the ebooks don't always let you copy paste, so I'll try to put them up as I find them. (I can try to find the reference to Napoleone as well, but I remember seeing it too. It's unreasonable to keep suggesting a pattern of fact is "urban legend" when it is cited by responsible authors. (And Yes, Steve Moore is entirely credible, outside of hard core 'guilter' circles).

Here is a quote from Candace Dempsey, Murder in Italy, at p.103;

"On November 3, he split town, skipping out on the rent. He threw a few things into a backpack and caught a northbound train. That night he showed up at the Soul to Soul disco in Milan, which offered everything from hip-hop to reggae music.
There Rudy met a young woman named Veronica Volta, and he told her that he was going to Germany to look for work.
Perhaps he had good reason for not lingering in Milan. Six days before Meredith's murder, police had arrested him there, after he was discovered sleeping in a children's nursery school armed with an eleven-inch kitchen knife lifted from the facility's kitchen. He said he'd broken in only because he needed a place to sleep and he wanted the knife for self-protection.When the police searched him, they discovered that he was also carrying a stolen cell phone and laptop computer, both of which had been swiped from a lawyer's office in Perugia. The burglar had broken in through a second story window. Rudy claimed that he'd purchased the items from somebody at the Milan train station, however, and after the police took mug shots, they let him go. He stayed in Milan only one day and then headed for Germany."

Here's an excerpt from Steve Moore's chapter in "Rudy Guede; The Forgotten Suspect" (see location at "56%" of book, can't get the page reference);

"All indications are that burglar/murderer Rudy Guede was a police informant. He had been found culpable for several burglaries in Perugia with the exact same M.O. In fact, just days prior to the Kercher murder, Rudy had been arrested in Milan for breaking into a day care center, where he was found. Inexplicably, the Perugian authorities requested that Milanese authorities release Rudy, drop charges, return his knife to him, and send him back to Perugia on the next train.Why? Usually, if a petty burglar and drug dealer from your town is caught in another town, it's cause for celebration: 'Now he's their problem!' But not this time; Perugia needed him back. And why? The only possible reason you would need a burglar and a drug dealer back in the town you are responsible for protecting is if he is an informant.
As an FBI agent, I 'ran' informants myself-dozens of them. And many got into petty criminal mischief. One even tried to stab someone over a drug deal. Each time I had them released after a petty offense, I knew I "owned" whatever they did while they should have been serving a month in jail. These are things the cops would be thinking about when they surveyed the body of the slain woman and recognized the oh-too-familiar method of break in. I can imagine that they felt sickened by what they were seeing, as much by the gore and tragedy as they were by the realization of who was responsible for the crime."
I know Nina Burleigh did even more in depth reporting on Guede in her book as well. Guede carrying a knife at prior break-ins is fact, not urban legend, as is his M.O. for second story jobs with rock throwing in Perugia, at a minimum at the law office whose stolen goods he had been caught with in the Milan incident.