Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

I remember seeing a doc done after the first appeal acquittal, where they had the crime scene video of the police engaging in strange investigative techniques, to show the botched foensics. One example they highlighted, (also I think mentioned by AK's pro bono attorney Anne Bremmer), where a police officer is actually scrubbing clean a footprint at the crime scene until there was no trace of it left. I''ve been wondering where in the house the footprint was located that was erased? (Does anyone else recall anything like that?).

They erased most of the footprints to collect the DNA. This can be seen in the November 3 crime scene video. In that video the markers by the prints are also visible so we know which prints they are.

00:20:40 .. 00:21:08 - Collecting biological evidence at #3 TG 01-04-2008 02:00
00:26:57 .. 00:27:02 - Collecting sample at #2 DateLine Police 1:20​

We also know that they scrubbed away the prints in the bedroom because in the December 18 video they spend a lot of time searching for those prints using the photographs taken earlier, bringing the lights closer and even consulting a laptop.

The prints are all well documented and they form an unbroken trail in Meredith's blood by the same shoe from the bedroom to the front door and back into the living room. The pattern is compatible with the shoes from the box that was found in Rudy's appartment.

 

[Dan O.]

Lots of people hate Amanda and Raffaele, but nobody really seems to be afraid of them. I don't think there are community petitions to drive them from the neighborhoods where they live or anything.

After the first appeal Raffaele was living and working in Switzerland and a lawyer there started a community petition to force him out.

 

[Samson]

After the first appeal Raffaele was living and working in Switzerland and a lawyer there started a community petition to force him out.

A text message was found to have been sent at 8:35PM of November 1st by KNOX's number to that of her co-defendant Patrick, in which she wrote "Ci vediamo dopo" ["See you later" or lit: "We'll see each other after"] thus confirming that in the following hours KNOX would find herself with Patrick in the apartment where the victim was. -- Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini (Order for arrests)

I only just read this.

 

[Dan O.]

Indeed, and that's why Nencini's argument is so nonsensical of course: if the lack of footprints between the bathmat and the bedroom is evidence footprints were cleaned up, then how come they weren't revealed with luminol? There should at least have been a swirl pattern to show where they were cleaned up, as you say.

How come the shoe print at marker 3 in the hall which we watched on video being cleaned up on November 3 and have DNA results to show that it was made with Meredith's blood was never revealed by the Luminol testing?

 

[Samson]

It is immaterial what crime theories are advanced, if the heliocentric solution involves planting of evidence by Stefanoni to replace a theory of irrational choice of evil, and epicycles, then that is precisely what happened.

ETA

This is my understanding too. My head is way below the surface on the DNA science, especially regarding the bra clasp interpretation, but my understanding is that Raffaele's is prominent among the mixed profiles and that C-V obscured that fact. My hunch remains that both the clasp and the knife evidence result from deliberate tampering, not contamination, probably involving Stefanoni. There is very strong circumstantial evidence in both cases, including her lies, suppression of data and the improbable selection/recovery of each item. No one on the prosecution side is trying to uphold her work.

I will not attribute, but I agree.

 

[Kestrel]

As I've said, my belief is the police know the break-in is real, but they have to maintain this fiction for some reason - I say to protect Guede, and hence themselves for not having arrested him 5 days earlier. It is an indication of 'conscious framing' that the police consistently refuse to allow any tests or challenges which will refute their theories of the crime and help the defendants.

Not to protect Guede, but to protect the original theory of the crime. They would rather send a couple of innocents to prison than admit to a mistake.

This isn't unique to Italy. Here in the US, prosecutors often fight requests for DNA testing that could exonerate a convict.

 

[katy_did]

How come the shoe print at marker 3 in the hall which we watched on video being cleaned up on November 3 and have DNA results to show that it was made with Meredith's blood was never revealed by the Luminol testing?

No idea Dan, what's your theory? Given that the purpose of using luminol is generally to detect cleaned up blood, you'd expect there to be some trace if someone had in fact cleaned up blood.

I haven't looked at the area of floor in question recently to know, but from memory there's a fair bit of background 'noise' (but no swirls to indicate cleaning). Perhaps the very trace amounts of blood involved - especially as compared to the presumably quite large amount of blood on the foot of whoever made the bathmat print - combined with the fact those prints weren't cleaned as such but rather scoured off (i.e. they didn't take soap and water to them) may explain it. I'm not sure we can be certain the DNA was definitely associated with the print, not at least if it's as easy to leave DNA on the floor merely by walking across it as the prosecution suggests it is.

 

[Samson]

Not to protect Guede, but to protect the original theory of the crime. They would rather send a couple of innocents to prison than admit to a mistake.

This isn't unique to Italy. Here in the US, prosecutors often fight requests for DNA testing that could exonerate a convict.

Hells bells please tell me it ain't so.

 

[acbytesla]

Doesn't the fact that their Supreme Court rules that that the interrogation is inadmissible and yet Massei and Nencini have both used it bother anyone else?

 

[andreajo]

Lots of people hate Amanda and Raffaele, but nobody really seems to be afraid of them. I don't think there are community petitions to drive them from the neighborhoods where they live or anything.

Andreajo, just to clarify, my no vote is what I think won't happen rather than what I think should not happen, of course I think it should not happen also, sorry to be pedantic if my meaning was already obvious

I wasn't taking exception to anything you said. You just made me think about something: if people are so sure they are dangerous murdering rapists, why aren't they afraid of them? They hate them, sure, but they don't seem afraid. Maybe they know deep down that they are harmless. Really deep down.

 

[andreajo]

After the first appeal Raffaele was living and working in Switzerland and a lawyer there started a community petition to force him out.

Thanks, Dan. O.

 

[Dan O.]

Ok, but maybe a reprise on why there was such weighty testimony on footprints in general being accorded inculpatory weight when so many people behaved like tourists before the forensics were analysed.

Why requires getting inside their heads to find the answers and that is such a retched place. Why do they reveal in a press statement that the duvet being used to cover Meredith's naked body shows that the assailant was a Muslim and later changes this to say it shows the assailant was a woman when the actual evidence shows that this is an indication of a first time killer. Why do they release on November 5 that the murder weapon is compatible with a pocket knife (incidentally after they had intercepted a phone call between Raffaele and his dad talking about Raffaele always carrying a pocket knife) and later claim that the primary wound could only have been created by a much larger knife (also incidentally after no forensic evidence could be found on the pocket knives)? The answer is that their so-called forensics is suspect centered. They make pronouncements of what they are looking for only after they have a suspect that they are trying to fit up.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Kastle-Meyer or latent fingerprint detection

Sorry boys no Luminol used in the Kercher/Knox bathroom there are the famous red stained pics showing a phenolphthalein based reagent.

There is a good chance that this was indeed a Kastle-Meyer test, although Franz Sfarzo thought that it came from using a pair of reagents to detect latent fingerprints.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The interrogation slipped in

Doesn't the fact that their Supreme Court rules that that the interrogation is inadmissible and yet Massei and Nencini have both used it bother anyone else?

It certainly has bothered me a great deal. The interrogation got in through the back door.

 

[Anode]

Here's what bothers me a lot. Rudy's DNA was found *inside* Meredith. If we try to determine how and when that could happen I can only come to one conclusion. Please help me out and prove me wrong because the really disturbs me.

Meredith was stabbed on one side of the room then dragged to her final resting place. It was then where her clothes were partially removed right? That means Rudy's DNA must have been deposited when she was dead or dying. Add to that the untested possible semen stain...

Someone compared AK to Charles Manson for not going to her appeals? Well how about Rudy. Who else sexually gratifies themselves while killing their victims? BTK and Ted Bundy are a couple of examples. Release Rudy?? I hope not. Until you can prove his DNA entered the victim in a consensual manner.

Who can do that? Become sexually aroused while a person is dying in a horribly bloody scene before them? That's one of the most disturbing things that I can imagine.

(seriously, I'd love to have someone tell me that this is not the case because this thought is keeping me up at night...)

 

[Grinder]

Psychopathology.

Massei found Rudy's motive for initiating the crime to be lust.

Jimmy Carter had lust in his heart.

 

[Dan O.]

No idea Dan, what's your theory? Given that the purpose of using luminol is generally to detect cleaned up blood, you'd expect there to be some trace if someone had in fact cleaned up blood.

I haven't looked at the area of floor in question recently to know, but from memory there's a fair bit of background 'noise' (but no swirls to indicate cleaning). Perhaps the very trace amounts of blood involved - especially as compared to the presumably quite large amount of blood on the foot of whoever made the bathmat print - combined with the fact those prints weren't cleaned as such but rather scoured off (i.e. they didn't take soap and water to them) may explain it. I'm not sure we can be certain the DNA was definitely associated with the print, not at least if it's as easy to leave DNA on the floor merely by walking across it as the prosecution suggests it is.

My theory which I have posted before is that the investigators used Luminol on December 18 specifically to find bare footprints which Amanda told them would likely be there on December 17 when she recounted the story of using the bloodied bathmat to scoot from the bathroom to her room the morning after Meredith's murder. This theory is backed by the fact that known locations that should have been Luminol positive such as the shoeprint at marker 3, the unmarked shoeprint near the pink bag and the rusty area under the radiator were not photographed with Luminol.

The process of collecting a dry stain involves swabbing it with a moistened blotter paper. This was done at marker 2 where we have before photos and after photos in both normal light and highlighted with Luminol.

The way to tell if DNA is associated with a suspected stain is to take a substrate sample nearby but outside the stain area using the same method. such controls were never done because it is almost certain that DNA would be found and a positive hit on a negative control is much more difficult to hand wave away.

 

[Grinder]

The problem with this is there is zero credible evidence Amanda and Raffaele were at the cottage that night, so that leaves Guede there by himself or Guede with one or more accomplices.

I've eliminated Amanda and Raffaele as suspects because of the lack of evidence suggesting they were not at Raffaele's apartment as they stated, something I could never do with John and Patsy Ramsey, because they were in the house when JonBenet was murdered. Clearly I think they are innocent, though.

You can't say their motive couldn't have been the scream because they were innocent. Sort of a tautology that if they didn't do it they didn't have a motive.

Motive is a bonus for the prosecution but there are lots of crimes that motive is a best a guess.

ETA - what motive did Rudi's trial give him? Bill do you have that?

 

[GWCarver]

Here's what bothers me a lot. Rudy's DNA was found *inside* Meredith. If we try to determine how and when that could happen I can only come to one conclusion. Please help me out and prove me wrong because the really disturbs me.

Meredith was stabbed on one side of the room then dragged to her final resting place. It was then where her clothes were partially removed right? That means Rudy's DNA must have been deposited when she was dead or dying. Add to that the untested possible semen stain...

Someone compared AK to Charles Manson for not going to her appeals? Well how about Rudy. Who else sexually gratifies themselves while killing their victims? BTK and Ted Bundy are a couple of examples. Release Rudy?? I hope not. Until you can prove his DNA entered the victim in a consensual manner.

Who can do that? Become sexually aroused while a person is dying in a horribly bloody scene before them? That's one of the most disturbing things that I can imagine.

(seriously, I'd love to have someone tell me that this is not the case because this thought is keeping me up at night...)

In his latest book "Law and Disorder", John Douglas says only a sociopath could have done what Rudy Guede did in the cottage. I would think that doesn't bode well for Perugians when "poor Rudy" is released to pick up his life where he left off.

 

[Desert Fox]

Someone compared AK to Charles Manson for not going to her appeals? Well how about Rudy. Who else sexually gratifies themselves while killing their victims? BTK and Ted Bundy are a couple of examples. Release Rudy?? I hope not. Until you can prove his DNA entered the victim in a consensual manner.

Are people really this stupid. . . . She has a wall called "Request for extradition" between her and any additional prison time. With the bad comedy of Italian courts, she knows how far she should trust them.