Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Donn]

So do you think there must be A truth? For example, either there is a God or there is not.

I think there is a how. How stuff came to be, how stuff works, how stuff happens. To me, the way, the how is truth. Anything contrary to that is underdeveloped, or on its way to false. Seems simple enough. Understanding the how is nothing like simple. There are many recursive facets to the tree of how and many such trees in the forest of reality.

 

[Pixel42]

I'll search the forum for some of their previous posts.

I've chatted with several posters over the years who came here convinced of their own psychic powers, learned how to think critically, and became diehard sceptics. The only username I can remember at the moment is chillzero, who IIRC was a tarot card reader amongst other things. A little searching found this post in a thread where posters shared what originally brought them to the JREF Forum:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4097103#post4097103

I was defending psychics on the Living TV forums, and was challenged on my own claims of psychic ability. Druid challenged me to prove myself and take Randi's million. I accepted the challenge and he posted the link.

I have so much to thank Druid for.

My life has changed completely with advice, guidance and even some of the taunting and more personal questions from the members here. I have friends who aren't offended by being asked questions, and don't see a query about their beliefs or claims as a demand to retaliate angrily. I have been able to socialise without feeling like a complete misfit with people who welcome me for who I am and my willingness to review even my own beliefs.

I have fought off serious depression, and no longer feel suicidal when things go wrong because I know that I didn't make them happen by some karmic influence, nor did I invite negative forces into my life by being curious, or unaccepting of something that didn't add up.

 

[Joey McGee]

The message from my brother was just one of many messages I received over the years, I refer to it because it was the most evidential, as it told me facts I did not know. As I said I gradually came to believe that some mediums are genuine, and there is a spirit world. Because if they were deceiving me they went to an awful lot of trouble for nothing. Because I only put a nominal sum in the collection plate.

1. How many messages did you get over the years that did not make sense or were obviously false or were too vague to make sense of?

2. Did the medium ask any questions? Lead you in any way?

3. How specific was the information? If they were really in connection with spirit, having a clear enough signal to get the saying the name "John" but being unable to come up with the information "McClelleand" or "Nov 14 1952" is kind of suspect, isn't it?

You went and asked your mom who confirmed the jist of the information was true. But plenty of people go looking for confirmation from information they get from mediums and find out that it is not true, only the successful "hits" get turned into stories such as yours...

4. If it's possible for mediums to get information from spirits that they could not have been gotten any other way, why is it impossible for them to do this under controlled conditions? Why can't they get any specific information that would leave no doubt?

 

[dlorde]

I've chatted with several posters over the years who came here convinced of their own psychic powers, learned how to think critically, and became diehard sceptics.

Of course, many here were religious believers and have subsequently seen the error of their ways...

 

[Innocuous]

Not me, I just came to believe that the simplest explanation for the accuracy of the many evidential messages I received over the years, was that the mediums were doing what they said they were doing. Communicating with the spirits of the departed.

This really is not the simplest explanation. It opens up a lot of other really difficult questions, with no evidence to support answers to those. Most of the explanations presented to you are much, much simpler.

Think of the unevidenced rationalizations already presented for why not there isn't a single psychic in the entire world willing to step forward and convincingly demonstrate their powers, successfully. Not one. Even though it would make them famous and rich, if they wanted. Even though it would bring hope and spirituality and plain old wonder to millions. Still, not one. Anywhere in the world ... not one. The simplest explanation is that they can't because they don't have psychic powers. The convoluted, complicated explanations include worldwide conspiracies, fear that people will kill themselves, fear of violating some unwritten rules, denying people knowledge so they can find things out for themselves, not wanting the money, and so on. These are not simpler explanations.

 

[stanfr]

What Innocuous just said. Also:

If I was a medium visiting a new church to drum up some interest, the first thing I'd do would be to see what I could find out about the regular attendees - names, addresses, jobs, family backgrounds, browse through local records, etc. All in a days work... then, perhaps, I'd be too busy to see the ones I couldn't dig out much about, and keen to see anyone who's details I'd uncovered.

Bingo! It is patently obvious to any of us who have no emotional attachment to the situtation, that if you were "a regular attendee" to the church, there were many people there who knew things about you, maybe not the details you mention but enough to do some digging beforehand and find out those details. It's hard to let go of that personal bias, but if you are really seeking the "truth" that is what you have to do: let go of it.

 

[Daylightstar]

Oh! come on, give the man some poetic licence. Here is another verse.

You should always discriminate between the real and the unreal. God alone is real, the Eternal Substance; all else is unreal, that is , impermentant. By dicriminating thus one should shake off impermenant objects from the mind.
Sri Ramakrishna

Oh, poetic licence. Alright then, that renders the statements in your signature meaningless.

 

[Daylightstar]

This really is not the simplest explanation. It opens up a lot of other really difficult questions, with no evidence to support answers to those. Most of the explanations presented to you are much, much simpler.

Think of the unevidenced rationalizations already presented for why not there isn't a single psychic in the entire world willing to step forward and convincingly demonstrate their powers, successfully. Not one. Even though it would make them famous and rich, if they wanted. Even though it would bring hope and spirituality and plain old wonder to millions. Still, not one. Anywhere in the world ... not one. The simplest explanation is that they can't because they don't have psychic powers. The convoluted, complicated explanations include worldwide conspiracies, fear that people will kill themselves, fear of violating some unwritten rules, denying people knowledge so they can find things out for themselves, not wanting the money, and so on. These are not simpler explanations.

+1.

 

[Iamme]

If I was a medium visiting a new church to drum up some interest, the first thing I'd do would be to see what I could find out about the regular attendees - names, addresses, jobs, family backgrounds, browse through local records, etc. All in a days work... then, perhaps, I'd be too busy to see the ones I couldn't dig out much about, and keen to see anyone who's details I'd uncovered.

And these mediums remember stuff on people they arent even dealing with on a daily basis? They can catalog in their mind certain key things about hundreds or `tens of thousands` ^^(from a post above) of people?
Or does this entire ruse require the medium to work in tandem with another person in the back room, who upon hearing say the name of the sitter, relays info to the medium via an ear piece?

 

[Iamme]

Scorpion - are you starting to have some doubts now? Knowing you were younger in the 70`s?...and likely never even thought of some of the stuff posters are bringing up here?

 

[Scorpion]

Scorpion - are you starting to have some doubts now? Knowing you were younger in the 70`s?...and likely never even thought of some of the stuff posters are bringing up here?

I have had doubts for years, and one reason is that I no longer go to spiritualist churches, so I do not have any new experiences.

 

[Scorpion]

What Innocuous just said. Also:



Bingo! It is patently obvious to any of us who have no emotional attachment to the situtation, that if you were "a regular attendee" to the church, there were many people there who knew things about you, maybe not the details you mention but enough to do some digging beforehand and find out those details. It's hard to let go of that personal bias, but if you are really seeking the "truth" that is what you have to do: let go of it.

Just how many people in a spiritualist church do you think are conspirators?
The organisers and all the mediums must be in on it, and that is not my experience. I was involved in what went on behind the scenes, and I sat in two seperate deveolping circles, and saw a friend develop into a medium.

 

[Scorpion]

1. How many messages did you get over the years that did not make sense or were obviously false or were too vague to make sense of?

Quite a number.

2. Did the medium ask any questions? Lead you in any way?

Some mediums ask you to answer "yes" or "no" to their questions.
I use to answer them in a toneless voice, so as not to give any clues in my manner.

3. How specific was the information? If they were really in connection with spirit, having a clear enough signal to get the saying the name "John" but being unable to come up with the information "McClelleand" or "Nov 14 1952" is kind of suspect, isn't it?

I have cited an example of a message where I was told my dead brothers name, and this is the best example I have of an evidential message. I was told his name and the circumstances of his death.

 

[Iamme]

I think the key about this particular topic and you really stems around this type of church you belong(ed) to. You were like in some kind of inner circle.
Now me...i have never had any religious affilliation beyond age 19. So if i now walked into the house of our local psychic(sign out front on main city street), and she did a reading on me, and told me things about my family that only i could know...frankly, i`d be blown away.
If she told me stuff like i am the kind of person who like to stay busy and does physical work for a living, and other more generic info that could be gleaned by my appearance, my talk, or from other things i previously told her...well pfft...i wouldnt be too impressed. However. Back in the 1970`s? Hmmm. What did i know then about ANY tricks psychics used? Did i even know they looked to see if you had callouses on your hands, for example?

 

[Iamme]

I had to laugh a couple? days ago, a poster here aluded to the fact your memory might not be accurate, and said that your story regarding how your baby brother died in the war...........
Well, the reason i laughed is HIS memory was (also?)faulty, because you said you had a brother that died in the war as a baby(right?...i think).
Could you clear up this story? What is meant by this baby brother, and dying in the war? What is the correct interpretation?

 

[Donn]

See? Even you can't remember.

 

[Iamme]

See? Even you can't remember.

But i`m pretty sure without re-looking it up. But when that other poster brought it up it, was like the topic at hand, because Scorpion recently made that quote.
.
My dad lost his older brother...his only brother... in WWII. I never got to meet him. Yes, it was common enough for brothers to get killed in that war, or a war.
But i dont know what was meant by a brother was killed in the war as a baby? Like a baby was crawling around outside and was shot?, or what?
Or if Scorpion didnt word it right? Or he forgot how the medium put the words exactly?

 

[Pixel42]

Just how many people in a spiritualist church do you think are conspirators?
The organisers and all the mediums must be in on it

Not at all. It only takes a few surprisingly accurate messages to impress, confirmation bias and the Forer Effect does the rest. Those few accurate messages don't even need to be the result of deliberate deception: listening to gossip, intelligent guesswork and sheer coincidence can account for them (if you throw out enough random guesses you're bound to guess right occasionally). The medium who knew about your dead baby brother might have got that information in a conversation with a friend of your mother of which they had no conscious memory, and genuinely believed it came from the beyond.

 

[Pixel42]

But i dont know what was meant by a brother was killed in the war as a baby? Like a baby was crawling around outside and was shot?, or what?
Or if Scorpion didnt word it right? Or he forgot how the medium put the words exactly?

I haven't gone back to read it again but I understood Scorpion to mean that his brother died as a baby during the war. Not because of the war, just during it. Of course he could have been killed in the blitz.

 

[Scorpion]

But i`m pretty sure without re-looking it up. But when that other poster brought it up it, was like the topic at hand, because Scorpion recently made that quote.
.
My dad lost his older brother...his only brother... in WWII. I never got to meet him. Yes, it was common enough for brothers to get killed in that war, or a war.
But i dont know what was meant by a brother was killed in the war as a baby? Like a baby was crawling around outside and was shot?, or what?
Or if Scorpion didnt word it right? Or he forgot how the medium put the words exactly?

To the best of my recollection the medium said the following.
" I have got your brother here" I said "No" The medium said "well he looks exactly like you". She then went on to say he had died in the war as a baby because there was no equipment in the hospital. I cannot remember the exact words but I do think she used the word "equipment" She then went on to say my brothers name, and that he had grown up in the spirit world.
He was studying to develop his intellect and he advised me to do the same, rather than allowing my head to be ruled by emotion. Which was an accurate reading of my personality.
When I asked my mother about it she said he died because there were no oxygen tents available because of the war.