Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Ladewig]

That's just one item that appears striking; how many others were anything like that memorable?

And yet even that one is open to many non-psychic interpretations. Here are a some possibilities:
[snip]

Others here can probably suggest more possibilities.

I would have gone with hot reading. I'd have gotten your name and place of birth from one of the other spiritual channelers and then checked parish records (listings of births and deaths) to see if I could find out more about your family. I'd then try to get ahold of your birth certificate. In many US jurisdictions, birth certificates list the number of previous children from the mother. Do British birth certificates follow that format? With that information, I'd look for birth and death certificates for the older brother.

I am not insisting that what I described is exactly what happened, I am merely building on dlorde's suggestion that non-psychic explanations exist.

 

[Scorpion]

Most of my views and statements about the spirit world come from what I remember hearing at trance lectures by the late Ursula Roberts a spiritualist medium who worked in the spiritualist association in London during the 1970's.
As It happens I do have the transcripts of a number of those lectures.

I also remember another message I was given in a church by another medium. She told me I had recently done a blue and white painting, and that the spirit world had inspired me to do it. She then said I did not think much of it. I am sure I had not discussed doing this painting with anyone in the church, never the less she knew I had done one, and even that I did not like it. It is an unlikely subject for a fishing expedition, as how would she even know I painted.

 

[Scorpion]

I would have gone with hot reading. I'd have gotten your name and place of birth from one of the other spiritual channelers and then checked parish records (listings of births and deaths) to see if I could find out more about your family. I'd then try to get ahold of your birth certificate. In many US jurisdictions, birth certificates list number of previous children from the mother. Do British birth certificates follow that format? With that information, I'd look for birth of death certificates for the older brother.

I am not insisting that what I described is exactly what happened, I am merely building on dlorde's suggestion that non-psychic explanations exist.

All that for a person in a congregation in a church the medium had not even been to before. Also we are talking about the 1970's, and there were no computers in public hands. Also my birth certificate only has my name on it.

 

[Ladewig]

Most of my views and statements about the spirit world come from what I remember hearing at trance lectures by the late Ursula Roberts a spiritualist medium who worked in the spiritualist association in London during the 1970's.
As I happens I do have the transcripts of a number of those lectures.

I also remember another message I was given in a church by another medium. She told me I had recently done a blue and white painting, and that the spirit world had inspired me to do it. She then said I did not think much of it. I am sure I had not discussed doing this painting with anyone in the church, never the less she knew I had done one, and even that I did not like it. It is an unlikely subject for a fishing expedition, as how would she even know I painted.

Fake psychics have admitted that one method that they use is sending someone to the victim's house on some pretext. A quick glance around the exterior and interior can be very revealing. In fact, sometimes the person sent to gather information would filch a small but quite recognizable object. Weeks or months later the spiritualist would meet with victim at the spiritualist church and through sleight of hand, "rematerialize" the object . If one is not aware of the trick, it can appear quite amazing.

 

[Joey McGee]

dlorde, with regard to point 4, the medium was from out of town, and I had never seen her before. My mother had never been to the church, and was not a spiritualist.

So do you really think that the mediums don't share information on you with each other?

Have you ever heard of Lamar Keene and his book the Psychic Mafia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Lamar_Keene



http://www.drspeg.com/courses/00-paranormal/tpmb.pdf

The web of mediumistic espionage that spans the United States and to some extent other countries is what makes the spook racket more than merely a local phenomenon and truly a Freemasonry of evil: a psychic mafia.
Viola Osgood Dunne’s files were mainly on index cards kept in locked filing cabinets. (Much later, after we’d gotten to know her better, Viola appointed us protectors of her files in the event of her sudden and unexpected demise.

There were billet-sized cards and papers, from every service or public séance ever held at Chesterfield. The files were arranges alphabetically by geographic location-- cities, states, countries. Each contained the name of the person and the question asked. There must have been tens of thousands of individual index cards.

And like me, Roy, as revealed in his confessions, kept card index files on sitters, went through their purses and billfolds to get useful information, and bugged pre-séance conversations to pick up juicy tidbits.

Yes, spiritualists have been sharing information and researching people since the beginning. "hot reading" is indeed common. Maybe your local spiritualists aren't as rich as experienced and as evil as these people but they probably share information on you.

Physical mediumship isn't very common these days as it was then because of repeated exposure of fraud. It's mostly just "messages" now.

Maybe they don't make very much money from public events but they are advertising for their private readings which can be lucrative and regular, and the attention of people means a lot to some people, as well some people have convinced themselves that their frauds bring comfort to the gullible.

It doesn't really matter, it would be simple to eliminate all suspicion of fraud by actually testing the mediums scientifically in a controlled setting to truly eliminate alternative explanations. This is indeed what Gary Schwartz tried to do. But sadly, he seems to have flown the coop, see the refutations of his work by Ray Hyman.

I'm confused with the idea that you believe that absolute proof of survival is somehow banned by the spirit world. That's contrary to the goals of spiritualism "proof of survival" and people who worked with Gary Schwartz. But I guess if you're willing to believe anything you're willing to believe anything.

 

[Scorpion]

I remember Thomas Johanson the former president of the spiritualist association, saying that one reason the spirit world do not provide absolute proof of their existence is that more people might commit suicide.

 

[The Shrike]

. . . the spirit world do not provide absolute proof of their existence is that more people might commit suicide.

Because . . . ?

 

[Joey McGee]

Well Scorpion, all you're doing is telling stories. If the average person hears a hundred such stories, it can be compelling. But the problem is that none of them are proof on their own, none of them are beyond alternative explanations, and we do not have the full facts and situation, even you cannot be sure of what you told who when despite what your memory tells you, or what information the person might have been able to find out or research on you. We can easily eliminate all of these problems by doing controlled experiments. Gary Schwartz actually tried to do this, but there are problems with his approach.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/how_not_to_test_mediums_critiquing_the_afterlife_experiments

Apparently spiritualists believe that the JREF prized is rigged.

Do you think that you could design a scientific test that would prove mediums are for real?

 

[Scorpion]

Do you think that you could design a scientific test that would prove mediums are for real?

Not me, I just came to believe that the simplest explanation for the accuracy of the many evidential messages I received over the years, was that the mediums were doing what they said they were doing. Communicating with the spirits of the departed.

 

[Scorpion]

Because . . . ?

That's all he said. I am not going to put more words in his mouth.

 

[Joey McGee]

I remember Thomas Johanson the former president of the spiritualist association, saying that one reason the spirit world do not provide absolute proof of their existence is that more people might commit suicide.

Traditionally, the spiritualist tradition discourages suicide by warning that it will put you in a dark place in the afterlife that is even worse, for a long time, (like taking your own life dooms you to hell in Christian theology) or doom you to repeat the experiences in a future life. If this were even remotely true than they wouldn't try offering any proof at all! The operation is set up to convince people that survival exists. No, this is an extremely sad excuse offered by people with a lack of creativity in their dealings with their gullible listeners. Better to stick with the two traditional excuses a) That the negative energies of the skeptics will interfere with testing and b) it's obvious to everyone who has a good heart.

 

[Joey McGee]

Not me, I just came to believe that the simplest explanation for the accuracy of the many evidential messages I received over the years, was that the mediums were doing what they said they were doing. Communicating with the spirits of the departed.

Why should we be looking for the simplest explanation instead of the one with the most evidence? If mediums can really communicate with the dead, it should be simple for them to prove this.

You're looking at it all wrong. What is the most likely explanation for the fact that mediums cannot prove their abilities when all possibilities of guessing and fraud are removed?

 

[wardenclyffe]

Scorpion,

Why did you stop regularly attending the spiritualist church decades ago? And what reignited your interest in it? And why was your interest reignited enough to come here, but not go back to church?

Ward

 

[Scorpion]

Scorpion,

Why did you stop regularly attending the spiritualist church decades ago? And what reignited your interest in it? And why was your interest reignited enough to come here, but not go back to church?

Ward

I just did not need healing any more, and I moved away from the local church to a town without one. I did not loose interest, I just put it to one side. As for being here, why is anybody here?

 

[I Ratant]

Not me, I just came to believe that the simplest explanation for the accuracy of the many evidential messages I received over the years, was that the mediums were doing what they said they were doing. Communicating with the spirits of the departed.

.
The simplest explanation is they are lying!
You WANT to be told you are communicating with the departed, and they tell you they are.
So you believe it.
Lying is much easier to discover than any communications from "beyond".

 

[Daylightstar]

But how about the quality of the evidence?

Like I said in an earlier post, a medium I had never seen before told me I had a brother that died in the war as a baby, and she even told me his name.
I did not know this until I went home and asked my mother about it.
What more quality of evidence does anyone need?

That's non-communicable evidence. It can not even be taken as evidence for the content of your claim.

It's evidence of you believing in post-mortem communication through so called mediums.
But that is it.

 

[Daylightstar]

Scorpion, considering your signature:

You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.

Stars can be seen when the sun rises, even during the middle of the day.
A 16 inch telescope can show you more stars during the day than you can see with the naked eye during the night.

Your god can not be seen, nor can the 'truth' of your claims concerning post-mortem communication through a so called medium .....

 

[stanfr]

I just did not need healing any more, and I moved away from the local church to a town without one. I did not loose interest, I just put it to one side. As for being here, why is anybody here?

Im here cause i have an interest in critical thinking and truth--two things that you seem to go out of your way to avoid. So why are you here?

 

[stanfr]

dlorde, with regard to point 4, the medium was from out of town, and I had never seen her before. My mother had never been to the church, and was not a spiritualist.

Even this simple statement shows how difficult it is for you to use a bit of critical thought process.
How do you know any of these things??

The only way to "know" is to do things in a controlled fashion, which is what we have all been suggesting here.

It is irrelevant whether you knew the spiritualist or not. What would be far more interestting to know is the circumstances that led you to her. I would be very surprised if you told me you had zero contact with this church before hand. The key question, therefore, is not whether you knew the spirritualist, but whether the spiritualist knew something about you. Unless you randomly walked into a church in some never-before visited place, and just dropped in unnacnounced on some unsuspecting medium (a scenario hard to fathom, since then how would you even know the person was there or was a medium??) Then, the spiritualist had some prior knowlege of you, even if it was just a short period of time beforehand. I'd be surprised that you got some sort of meeting with this person completely unnanounced, in a setting where noone had any knowlege of you. But go ahead, surprise me!

 

[Scorpion]

dlorde, with regard to point 4, the medium was from out of town, and I had never seen her before. My mother had never been to the church, and was not a spiritualist.

Even this simple statement shows how difficult it is for you to use a bit of critical thought process.
How do you know any of these things??

The only way to "know" is to do things in a controlled fashion, which is what we have all been suggesting here.

It is irrelevant whether you knew the spiritualist or not. What would be far more interestting to know is the circumstances that led you to her. I would be very surprised if you told me you had zero contact with this church before hand. The key question, therefore, is not whether you knew the spirritualist, but whether the spiritualist knew something about you. Unless you randomly walked into a church in some never-before visited place, and just dropped in unnacnounced on some unsuspecting medium (a scenario hard to fathom, since then how would you even know the person was there or was a medium??) Then, the spiritualist had some prior knowlege of you, even if it was just a short period of time beforehand. I'd be surprised that you got some sort of meeting with this person completely unnanounced, in a setting where noone had any knowlege of you. But go ahead, surprise me!

The church where I had the message about my brother was a church I regularly attended. But the medium was someone I had never seen before.
However I have "dropped in on unsuspecting mediums" in other churches
up and down the country, and on occasions I have still had evidential messages, even in strange churches with unknown mediums.