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I think schools should be released from liability for OTC meds. I don't think they should be punishing students for something that is neither dangerous nor illegal.

I can agree with everything you say here if you will just sit down and drink a few bottles of cough syrup during your lunch break tomorrow. Two or three is what folks used to recommend when I was in school to get a good buzz. But if you are heavier than the average 8th grade girl you may want to slug back a few more to get the full effect.

(PS: This would be both dangerous and illegal, so please don't actually do this.)
 
I can agree with everything you say here if you will just sit down and drink a few bottles of cough syrup during your lunch break tomorrow. Two or three is what folks used to recommend when I was in school to get a good buzz. But if you are heavier than the average 8th grade girl you may want to slug back a few more to get the full effect.

(PS: This would be both dangerous and illegal, so please don't actually do this.)


And then please smoke enough rolled up toilet paper to make you pass out from smoke inhalation, pierce the skin between your fingers with straightened staples, eat a handful of nutmeg for all the wonderful effects that gives, and all the other crazy **** I've seen students do with perfectly normal, legal, and helpful foods and supplies which if all banned would leave us trying to educate them while they're strapped into straightjackets in padded rooms.

I'll second Charlie Wilkes. I think schools should be released from liability for OTC meds. I don't think they should be punishing students for something that is neither dangerous nor illegal. EVEN IF misusing said something in the most extreme, dumbass way possible might be dangerous.
 
OT, but does American schools have a school nurse full time, every day of the week? I'm stunned.

When I was at school, the nurse was aviable for one hour, two days a week at most. And I her from school nurses today, they have two or even three schools to care for...
 
And then please smoke enough rolled up toilet paper to make you pass out from smoke inhalation, pierce the skin between your fingers with straightened staples, eat a handful of nutmeg for all the wonderful effects that gives, and all the other crazy **** I've seen students do with perfectly normal, legal, and helpful foods and supplies which if all banned would leave us trying to educate them while they're strapped into straightjackets in padded rooms.

I get your point, but none of those actually cause a buzz that would be attractive after a first try. Apparently, drinking cough medicine does.

I remember when liquid paper was more "huff-able" and our school restricted its use. I wonder if kids today even know what liquid paper is . . .

I'll second Charlie Wilkes. I think schools should be released from liability for OTC meds. I don't think they should be punishing students for something that is neither dangerous nor illegal. EVEN IF misusing said something in the most extreme, dumbass way possible might be dangerous.

Fine, I was just pointing out that misuse of common OTC drugs is attractive to some kids, dangerous, and illegal. All things that seemed to be missed in the post I was responding to.
 
OT, but does American schools have a school nurse full time, every day of the week? I'm stunned.

When I was at school, the nurse was aviable for one hour, two days a week at most. And I her from school nurses today, they have two or even three schools to care for...

Yep. As budgets have been reduced some small schools will share a nurse if they are close to each other, but the general expectation is a nurse in every public school. I think small private schools sometimes have staff trained as EMTs but not necessarily nurses.
 
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I get your point, but none of those actually cause a buzz that would be attractive after a first try. Apparently, drinking cough medicine does.

I remember when liquid paper was more "huff-able" and our school restricted its use. I wonder if kids today even know what liquid paper is . . .

If you put it on a bee, it dies.
 
I'll second Charlie Wilkes. I think schools should be released from liability for OTC meds.

Fine, I don't disagree with you. But that doesn't actually have any bearing on the current practice of ZT, since, at the moment, schools are NOT released from the liability for OTC meds. Therefore, until this proposal actually happens, what are schools supposed to do? As noble as the goal is, schools are, currently, still liable for what happens to students with OTC meds.
 
OT, but does American schools have a school nurse full time, every day of the week? I'm stunned.

When I was at school, the nurse was aviable for one hour, two days a week at most. And I her from school nurses today, they have two or even three schools to care for...

The public scool my children attend has two full-time nurses.
 
The public scool my children attend has two full-time nurses.

The availability of school nurses would seem to vary greatly based on locality (from the site):

Forty-five percent (45%) of schools in the US are staffed with a full-time RN (NASN, 2007).
On average, school nurses in the US are responsible for 2.2 schools (NASN, 2007).
The average nurse – student ratio in the US is 1:1151 (NASN, 2007).
 
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This would seem to vary greatly based on locality.

Certainly, and it's not really about nursing skills per se so much as an adult has to dispense.

In BC there are hundreds of schools with enrolment below 25 students... there is no fulltime nurse at any of them. The medication is managed by a teacher or teaching assistant or even volunteer parent.
 
This would seem to vary greatly based on locality.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that this was true everywhere. Just to state that having a full-time nurse is not a huge exception. I'm in a small town (about 20k) which has 11 public schools (8 Elementary, 2 Middle, 1 High). Judging from their web page, they have 11 nurses and a nurse supervisor, so it appears to be one per school. Where my children attend an Elementary. Middle, and High school together, and there are three nurses in total (2 for Elementary, 1 for Middle, 1 for High). One of the schools does not have a nurse listed; I don't know where that one is, but I suspect it's co-located with another of the schools that does have a nurse.

It will vary by district and funding level. Rural and lower-income areas would be much less likely to have full-time nurses, and would be tend to part-time nurses or the sharing that others indicated.

ETA: I see some additional info has been posted. And blutoski also has a point, I suspect the policy for our school is in place because we do have two full time nurses. At other schools (including one I went to when younger, about *mumble mumble* years ago), medicines were kept in the prinicpals office. The goal is to have an adult involved to make sure medications are taken safely and correctly. I could see loosening the standards at a point (say, at a certain grade level or age they can carry them themselves as long as there's a note from the parent), but for younger children I most definately want an adult involved.

And I simply can't agree with an open policy on OTC medications. I don't want the school, a place where I have no insight and no oversight, to allow my children to take whatever OTC meds they want wihtout my input or knowledge. An "open" OTC policy would be specifically taking this choice away from me as a parent. It would remove my ability to have any say in what my child was taking or how. In the current system, we get a one-page report from the nurse when one of our children needs medicition, saying when they came in, what they compalined of/needed, what they were given, and so forth. Basically, the school policies concerning OTC meds are to insure two things:

1. Of course, so that the school can cover itself from liability issues by trying to insure the safety of the students.
2. So the parents are informed and aware of what their children are taking, and the school does not provide an environment that removes that oversight.

Now, since if I don't post it every few posts it seems someone gets the wrong idea about my position (;)), I am absolutely against the one-punishment-fits-all zero tolerance BS. I think the punishment should fit the crime. Use of OTC meds against policy, assuming it isn't abuse, should have a mild punishment (maybe even simply confiscation of the meds and notifying the parents for a first offense, moving up with repeated offenses, same as most other rules).
 
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. . . (mega-snip) . . .

Now, since if I don't post it every few posts it seems someone gets the wrong idea about my position (;)), I am absolutely against the one-punishment-fits-all zero tolerance BS. I think the punishment should fit the crime. Use of OTC meds against policy, assuming it isn't abuse, should have a mild punishment (maybe even simply confiscation of the meds and notifying the parents for a first offense, moving up with repeated offenses, same as most other rules).

Thanks. You've essentially summed up my objection to zero tolerance policies: In order to ban weapons from the school, zero tolerance policies result in suspension for a ten-year old girl whose parent unthinkingly put a kitchen knife in her lunch pail. Apparently, zero tolerance supporters can't tell the difference between a switchblade and a kitchen knife.
 
Fine, I don't disagree with you. But that doesn't actually have any bearing on the current practice of ZT, since, at the moment, schools are NOT released from the liability for OTC meds. Therefore, until this proposal actually happens, what are schools supposed to do? As noble as the goal is, schools are, currently, still liable for what happens to students with OTC meds.

I don't quite get your objection.

Right now ZT is the facts on the ground.
Right now liability for OTC meds are the facts on the ground.

If I want to argue that we shouldn't have ZT, why can't I argue we shouldn't have liability for OTC meds? As you point out, they're linked.

If I'm constrained by having to accept the status quo as inviolable, why even bother with the extra step? Just tell me that Zero Tolerance is the status quo, as as noble as my goals may be, Zero Tolerance is the system in place.
 
These policies on over-the-counter meds are written by people with no common sense whatsoever, who have no idea what menstruation is like for girls going through puberty, teenaged girls and even adult women.

I was an 11-year-old girl once. One of the many symptoms I got (and still get on occasion) during PMS was, if you can believe it, lower-body paralysis. I won't disgust you with all of the gross details but I will mention that before, during and after menstruation, I'd be literally bent in half in pain on the toilet, clutching the bathroom sink in terror.

As an afterschool teacher for low-income high school-age students, I don't want a girl to have a spasm of paralysis during my lessons. That's a distraction for the teacher(s), the student and the rest of the class. You say she should just ask for permission to go to the nurse whenever it happens? I don't want her to humiliate herself, me, my co-workers and the rest of the class by pretty much publicly announcing the onset of her menstrual cramps in real time. The discussion, laughter, joking, teasing, whispering and gossip (and bullying!) that causes among 12-year-olds (particularly the ones who are "ghetto" and immature) can be considerable.

That's a much bigger distraction to the class than opening her bookbag and discreetly popping a few pills would be. I'd only tell her to be discreet and remove the label. If asked, she should tell her classmates that they are aspirin pills or something of the sort. Also, claiming to have their period is a standard trick that "problem children" use to get out of class. Letting them take Midol before school, during lunch or in class removes that pretext from their arsenal of lame excuses. It would allow the teacher to call their bluff and say "No, you stay in class! You took your medication, you don't get to leave."
 
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I don't want her to humiliate herself, me, my co-workers and the rest of the class by pretty much publicly announcing the onset of her menstrual cramps in real time. The discussion, laughter, joking, teasing, whispering and gossip (and bullying!) that causes among 12-year-olds (particularly the ones who are "ghetto" and immature) can be considerable.

Yes; yes, and yes! :( An injury can be a "badge of pride" and if it's bad enough to see the nurse that's extra points. But for a girl to have cramps...it's a whole 'nother ball game.
 
In the stories I've heard on the subject, the authorities have reacted to comparatively minor infractions in a gratuitous manner. That's what I'm against. It's one thing to say, "School policy is that students should not have medications in their possession and should not bring weapons to school. It is quite another once the term Zero Tolerance is invoked. Then kitchen knives are equated with switchblades, and Midol with meth. Then, becuase of zero tolerance, kids get suspended from school because their parents packed a kitchen knife in their lunch box, honor students are suspended and treated as criminals for having Midol in their purses while they're suffering from menstrual cramps, etc.

I think I would be OK with action being taken because the child possesses a kitchen knife, regardless of who packed it. Kitchen knives are used in more stabbings than weapons like switchblades because of their availability.

No zero tolerance is where a child breaks the "no knives" policy by bringing a butter knife. Which is obviously a major danger. Mass spreadings are becoming a common menace and the rate of school spreadings is on the rise. Just recently a man was spread to death following an argument in a movie theatre and left lying in a pool of preserves.
 
I think I would be OK with action being taken because the child possesses a kitchen knife, regardless of who packed it. Kitchen knives are used in more stabbings than weapons like switchblades because of their availability.

No zero tolerance is where a child breaks the "no knives" policy by bringing a butter knife. Which is obviously a major danger. Mass spreadings are becoming a common menace and the rate of school spreadings is on the rise. Just recently a man was spread to death following an argument in a movie theatre and left lying in a pool of preserves.

One can only hope Amber's parents hire a lawyer with a big enough dorsal fin to sue all parties in their daughter's expulsion. I honestly cannot understand the mentality behind such decisions. It seems as if some official says to him/her self, "I have the power to really s*** on someone. So, let me use my power on an innocent, just to prove I have it."
 
I don't quite get your objection.

Right now ZT is the facts on the ground.
Right now liability for OTC meds are the facts on the ground.

Yes.

The reason we have ZT is because of liability. Therefore, the question of ZT or not to ZT is contingent on the question of liability. It's not they they are linked, it is that ZT is contingent. The issue of whether schools should or should not be liable for OTC meds is irrespective of the ZT policies.

As I said, if you want to argue that schools should not be liable for OTC meds, then fine. Make that argument. It is irrespective of ZT policies. And when that happens, that schools are protected from liability for OTC meds, then great, we can see that ZT is not needed.

But for the question of whether ZT is appropriate NOW, you have to consider the situation as it is, which is that schools are liable for outcomes.

When I see the complaints in this thread, they are about how ZT is such a dumb thing to have, which means it is referring to the current situation where schools bear liability.

Given that schools ARE liable, then what does that mean in terms of ZT? "ZT policies are bad because schools shouldn't be responsible for OTC meds" doesn't matter, because schools ARE not allowed to set their policies based on what they or you or I think their responsibility should be, but by what their responsibilities are. If, in the future, those responsibilities get changed, then their policies can be set based on that situation.

But for now, given their current liability, they are using ZT as their means for protecting themselves. And this is what people are complaining about.
 
Yes.

The reason we have ZT is because of liability. Therefore, the question of ZT or not to ZT is contingent on the question of liability. It's not they they are linked, it is that ZT is contingent. The issue of whether schools should or should not be liable for OTC meds is irrespective of the ZT policies.

As I said, if you want to argue that schools should not be liable for OTC meds, then fine. Make that argument. It is irrespective of ZT policies. And when that happens, that schools are protected from liability for OTC meds, then great, we can see that ZT is not needed.

But for the question of whether ZT is appropriate NOW, you have to consider the situation as it is, which is that schools are liable for outcomes.

When I see the complaints in this thread, they are about how ZT is such a dumb thing to have, which means it is referring to the current situation where schools bear liability.

Given that schools ARE liable, then what does that mean in terms of ZT? "ZT policies are bad because schools shouldn't be responsible for OTC meds" doesn't matter, because schools ARE not allowed to set their policies based on what they or you or I think their responsibility should be, but by what their responsibilities are. If, in the future, those responsibilities get changed, then their policies can be set based on that situation.

But for now, given their current liability, they are using ZT as their means for protecting themselves. And this is what people are complaining about.

And this makes it reasonable for them to expel a girl for having a butter knife? As far as liabilities go such egregious abuse as the case in the link invites lawsuits, thus increasing liability.

As to OTC medications, the schools do not need to suspend girls taking Midol for menstrual cramps. They can simply confiscate the Midol and return it to the parents. Alternately, they can ask parents to sign a waiver stating that their daughter has their permission to have and use Midol.

Another question I have regarding you liability defense is that schools have certainly face this issue for decades, yet zero tolerance policies seem to be comparatively new. Are you sure school liability is the reason for instituting these policies?
 

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