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zero point field and unexplained phenomena?

qII

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Could ZPF explain odd phenomena that exists in the animal kingdom such as the high degree of syncronicity in schools of fish or insects detecting pheromones despite the fact that the wind is blowing the chemical in the opposite direction.

Is ZPF the reason why particles once paired continue to interact with each other even after separated? Nonlocality?

In nonlocality can one of the electrons be moved to another galaxy and still interact with its sister electron?

Does anyone have anything interesting to say about ZPF.
 
I think it would be interesting to hear why you would think that ZPF can explain, for instance, animal communication. Where did that idea come from? I can't see how you've come up with that, but I imagine it's interesting.
 
Could ZPF explain odd phenomena that exists in the animal kingdom such as the high degree of syncronicity in schools of fish or insects detecting pheromones despite the fact that the wind is blowing the chemical in the opposite direction.

I didn't realise these things were unexplained. "Following" doesn't seem a particularly supernatural trait, nor does diffusion.

David
 
I don't believe in 'supernatural' because i believe that strange phenomena can be explained by physics.

Can someone explain to me, a non-physicist, if nonlocality has any distance limits such as from one side of the universe to the other.
 
olaf said:
Could ZPF explain odd phenomena that exists in the animal kingdom such as the high degree of syncronicity in schools of fish or insects detecting pheromones despite the fact that the wind is blowing the chemical in the opposite direction.

Is ZPF the reason why particles once paired continue to interact with each other even after separated? Nonlocality?

In nonlocality can one of the electrons be moved to another galaxy and still interact with its sister electron?

Does anyone have anything interesting to say about ZPF.

As far as I know (and I'm willing to learn), ZPF is a useful model describing the structure of empty space. From time to time, empty space "produces" pairs of particles (a particle and an anti-particle), which tend to run into one another and self destruct at once.

Quantum entanglement, the explanation for how particles remain "linked" even after they move apart, is a different matter. As a proof, you can have quantum entanglement among particles that are not in empty space, you can entangle existing particles, and other things.

The four forces (gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear) are most of the reasons for which particles interact when seperated.

Nonlocality is a result of quantum entanglement, and says that two particles that are entangled have some linked properties. The best example is spin, where two entangled electrons have opposite spins, but you don't know which one has a positive spin.

As long as you do nothing that would reveal the spin of either particle, the electrons behave as if they had one half positive and one half negative spin. As soon as you check, one is positive and the other negative, *and the entanglement is broken*.

In theory, the dsitance between entangles particles does not matter, but there are lots of practical problems before we get to galaxy spanning distances. First problem: noise. Random particles or waves bumping into your electron will reveal its spin, so the system collapses very fast. I think the record is about 1 meter. Second problem: you *cannot* predict how the particles will split up (whether you get positive or negative spin), so you can't use this to communicate.

Back to ZPF, or at least my take on it: if you look at a huge volume of space, and assume it will produce a particle pair, you get a tiny amount of energy. If you look at a smaller volume *and assume it will produce the same number of particles*, you get a larger energy output. Since there are quantum effects meaning that there is a minimum level of energy that can be produced, the model states that *when* particles are being created, a small volume has a greater energy output than a large one. It's counterintuitive, and completely useless for energy output purposes (since a smaller volume means lower chances of getting anything), but it's a common excuse among free energy followers.

To reply to your second question, nonlocality has in theory no distance limits. However, entanglement requires that the particles be in contact at some point (or linked to the same atom, forcing their spins to be opposed), and noise very quickly destroys entanglement. So the odds of entangled particles being at any significant distance from one another are extremely low, and they will not stay entangled very long even if they are far apart.

Nonlocality does not allow communication, either, and is limited to the quantum scale. It can explain odd outcomes at the scale of a few photons for a few nanoseconds over a few nanometers, but then it breaks down.
 
Re: Re: zero point field and unexplained phenomena?

I've been reading books on quantum theory by the highest-level award-winning experts to get the latest and best information and they say that quantum nonlocality doesn't exist, particles have properties before measurement and wave-function collapse is a mathematical shortcut mistaken for a physical effect.

So Einstein was right to dismiss "spooky-action-at-a-distance". :)
 
Wipeout,

I've been reading books on quantum theory by the highest-level award-winning experts to get the latest and best information and they say that quantum nonlocality doesn't exist, particles have properties before measurement and wave-function collapse is a mathematical shortcut mistaken for a physical effect.

Which books, and by which "highest level award-winning experts"?


Dr. Stupid
 
Thanks MESchlum for the answer.

Wouldn't this ZPF exist everywhere not just just deep confines of space? Wouldn't it also exist right here on earth?

Of course, the other poster states that nonlocality does not exist so now i am a bit confused.
 
olaf said:
Thanks MESchlum for the answer.

Wouldn't this ZPF exist everywhere not just just deep confines of space? Wouldn't it also exist right here on earth?

Of course, the other poster states that nonlocality does not exist so now i am a bit confused.

The ZPF is a model of how empty space behaves. Inplaces where you have things besides empty space, I imagine you still get ZPF effects, but they are drowned out by the rpesence of matter.

If you want (and this is not necessarily a good analogy) the ZPF is the canvas for a painting. It's there, it has a "colour" of sorts, but it only can be noticed or have an effect when there is nothing else around. Matter, light and so forth are the "paint".

I have not read the books other posters have, but I'm not overly convinced by the statements made.

To go over it piecemeal, based on my experience and knowledge:

quantum nonlocality doesn't exist

I'm fairly sure I saw an article mention that they had sucessfully showed quantum entanglement (and so non-locality) at a distance of 1 meter.

My QM textbooks insist that if you start with two paired electrons and seperate them, they will have opposite spins when you measure them.

particles have properties before measurement

Well, yes. It's just that in some specific cases, you don't know what they are and they behave as if they had a combination of different properties.

A perfectly valid statement, but taken to mean things that it shouldn't, in my opinion.

wave-function collapse is a mathematical shortcut mistaken for a physical effect.

It is a mathematical shortcut, yes - insofar as actually doing the math rather than letting it lie is a shortcut.

However, you can observe it - which is not really the case for things that are non physical.

How do you observe it? With one of the simplest devices known for this purpose, the twin slit experiment.

Take a piece of cardboard, cut two thin parallel slits in it. Turn off the lights, set a sheet a ways behind the cardboard, position a beam splitter in front of the sheet, and light it.

Photons (light) hit the beam splitter and go towards one of the slits - you don't know which.

Ideally, you see a wave pattern on the sheet, created by photons behaving like waves and going through both slits.

Block a slit, you see a line of light, since the photons that go through are all going through the open slit. You have just collapsed a wave function by finding out whether a photon went in one slit or the other.

I've seen this done, so the other post seems suspect to me.
 
You have just collapsed a wave function by finding out whether a photon went in one slit or the other.

I have read of this once before and it still boggles my mind as to why it happens. Fascinating.

Scribble, to answer your question... i wonder about these things because i read books on physics that try to tie quantum mechanics to certain phenomena. the work by rupert Sheldrake and others comes to mind.

http://www.innerexplorations.com/catchmeta/mys2.htm
 
Stimpson J. Cat said:
Wipeout,

Which books, and by which "highest level award-winning experts"?

Dr. Stupid

I quite understandably sense some doubt from you here... ;)

Murray Gell-Mann, Jim Hartle, Roland Omnes and Robert Griffiths are the highest-level award-winning experts I'm talking about.

A physics Nobel Prize awarded unshared plus further nomination (Gell-Mann), two mathematical physics APS Heineman Prizes (Gell-Mann and Griffiths) and "the wavefunction of the universe" (Hartle) are kind of hard to argue with. They have several relevant books and papers ranging from popular science to the technical.

Consistent Quantum Theory by Robert B. Griffiths is the technical introductory book to go for and his papers (many of which are online) are also the ones to look at because he focuses on the apparent paradoxes and inconsistencies of quantum theory that everyone talks about.

You can read sample chapters, there are links to papers and also a FAQ at his website:

http://bloch.math.cmu.edu/quest.html
 
Wipeout, thanks for the paper. It would be interesting to hear other viewpoints on whether or not nonlocality exists even over short distances.

If it does not exist are there still scientists who state forcefully that it does exist.
 
Just read the FAQ, so I'm not as informed as I could be, but more than I was.

The issue raised in the FAQ seems (to me) to be one of semantics.

You can't have a system where Sx and Sz are both described. So by the quantum mechanics I was taught, if you know Sz, the value of Sx is a superposition of two different states (+1/2 and -1/2), and which one is observed is impossible to predict (though you can skew the experiment so one is more likely than the other).

By consistent histories, you have a stochastic (random) distribution describing the possible values of Sx (+1/2 or -1/2). When you change the framework to observe Sx, you perform operations on the stochastic distribution - unless you move into "unitary" time (I think, I'm a bit vague on the terminology), when one of the stochastic outcomes is observed. You can perform operations that will change the stochastic distribution.


Bascially, it seems that you get the same results, the same inability to observe "incompatible" things, the same chances to modify the outcomes.

What is different is that by my textbooks, the final state is undetermined until you perform a test. By consistent histories, the final state is set in advance (the particle has a +1/2 spin, for instance), but until you observe it you only get data from the stochastic distribution.

Textbooks: you roll a die at the time of observation.
Consistent histories: the die was rolled at the beginning of time (or at least the particle) but you can't know what its value is until you test it, and until you do it behaves as if no die were rolled.

Same results. One is stranger to imagine, but shorter to describe. Your pick - I have yet to see anything (only from the FAQ) that suggests that the different interpretations lead to different predictions. If not (and I suspect not), it's a matter of viewpoint, not of observable fact.
 
I was going to try and answer all of the points made but Griffiths is an expert and I'm only still learning the subject so go read his FAQ, book and papers instead of listening to me mess it up. :)

I'm still a bit hazy about quantum theory being "nonseparable" while not being "nonlocal", as Roland Omnes in his book Understanding Quantum Mechanics says in reference to the EPR experiment.

Hmmm... I've still much to learn.

olaf said:
Wipeout, thanks for the paper. It would be interesting to hear other viewpoints on whether or not nonlocality exists even over short distances.

If it does not exist are there still scientists who state forcefully that it does exist.

You're welcome. I started learning quantum theory by going and finding out what the experts think first to get the best information possible. I often mention this new interpretation to let people know that nonlocality is not as accepted as many make it seem, particularly amongst specialists. It might not even exist at all.

MESchlum said:
Same results. One is stranger to imagine, but shorter to describe. Your pick - I have yet to see anything (only from the FAQ) that suggests that the different interpretations lead to different predictions. If not (and I suspect not), it's a matter of viewpoint, not of observable fact.

True, they give the same results and they are meant to, but the old interpretations can violate special relativity, involve "outside"(?) observation on the universe and also have a wavefunction collapse preceeding its cause, so a new interpretation which avoids these already has some benefits.

If two ways of thinking about something give the same results but one makes more sense, then I vote we go for the one which makes more sense. :)
 
Regarding ZPE, it is real and manifests itself by exerting the Casimir Effect on facing conductive plates. That's radiation pressure, unbalanced because of the suppression of longer wavelengths inside a cavity.

ZPE may be implicated in the accelerating expansion of the universe, but nobody knows. That was suggested by Dr. Hawking, anyway.
 
Garys,
Thanks for your reply. I struggle with even the most elementary principles of physics and that is why i appreciate everyone's input. I enjoy reading books that present a link between the new physics and the way the body might work beyond the chemical level.

A respected american researcher named Dr Candace Pert, discoverer of the opiate system, thinks that chemical reactions do not explain what is happening in the body. She thinks that neurotransmitters bond to receptors due to shared "vibrations" possibly at the subatomic level.

I can't help but wonder if there is some type of cosmic glue that ties everything together. http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

This being a skeptics site, and from what I have read so far, I expect many people to pounce on these ideas.

This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.
 
olaf said:
Could ZPF explain odd phenomena that exists in the animal kingdom such as the high degree of syncronicity in schools of fish or insects detecting pheromones despite the fact that the wind is blowing the chemical in the opposite direction.

Regarding the upwind detection of pheromones:

First, molecules can diffuse "upwind". If you plot the distribution of pheromones from an "emitter" you would find an even distribution when there is no wind and a skewed distribution towards the downwind side when there is a wind, but there would still be molecules on the upwind side.

Second, insects are remarkably sensitive to some molecules. I once read (probably Scientific American and probably 20 years ago) that some moth antennae are capable of detecting a single sex pheromone molecule.

So this phenomenon can be explained without resorting to ZPF.
 
Re: Re: zero point field and unexplained phenomena?

patnray said:
Second, insects are remarkably sensitive to some molecules. I once read (probably Scientific American and probably 20 years ago) that some moth antennae are capable of detecting a single sex pheromone molecule.

I recognize something similar to that from the Guinness Book of Records. Looking at the book, it turns out the male Emporer moth can detect a female from 11 km and she carries less than 0.0001 mg of the scent.
 
This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.

This reminds me that John Wheeler once suggested that all electrons look the same because they are all the same electron. :D

The idea didn't really take off though. ;)
 
Let see:

Quantum nonlocality is much more than separated spins always being opposite - that is trivially obtained in a local theory.

Quantum nonlocality (for want of a better term) has been demonstrated for spacelike separated systems over hundreds of metres. We have no idea if there are limits to the distances it can be exhibited over. If QM was the final theory of everything then it says no - there is no restriction.

Contrary to someone's assertion, entanglement is endemic in the universe (heck, empty space -- i.e. the electromagnetic vacuum/ZPE - is HIGHLY entangled). Similarly, all atoms/molecules etc have entanglement between various different degrees of freedom. The problem is finding pure entanglement in degrees of freedom that are classically accessible (which basically means that there are fields we can control by dialing knobs in the lab that allow us to manipulate these degrees of freedom and make measurements on them...)

Gell Mann doesnt understand Bell's theorem - one only needs to read The Quark and the Jaguar to see this. (Not so surprising, nor did 't Hooft - another Nobel Prizewinner - until very, very recently). Try reading Griffiths section in his book on Bell's theorem, and you'll find he makes no meaningful mention of consistent histories. Why? IMO because it has nothing useful to say on the subject (nor does Griffiths' Am J Phys article that he refers to on his webpage.) The point is that consistent histories is an a-posteriori theory - after the measurements, you can find a way to assign physical properties to the systems consistent with what you observed. For this you hardly need quantum mechanics (and moreover, one can imagine a physically ridiculous universe involving all sorts of nonlocal signalling which can still be consistently assigned a-posteriori histories!) I am still unsure whether Hartle understands the issues completely, but since I recently moved into the hornets nest of these critters (Imperial College), I am expecting to get into vociferous arguments with them.

There are certainly proposals for understanding quantum mechanics without wavefunction collapse. All such proposals have features that many find untenable, thus there is no commonly accepted interpretation. My personal view is that wavefunction "collapse" is no different from updating of ones information classically - if I tell you that the ball in a Roulette wheel landed in a red slot, you "collapse" the uniform probability distribution you assigned over all slots to one with non-zero probability on the red ones. This is known as the "epistemic" interpretation of quantum states - they are states of "knowledge" and not "reality". Strangely, this interpretation results in less nonlocality than others, but still doesnt get rid of it all...

AFAIK Hawking did not originate the idea of ZPE being implicated in the accelerating universe. Its an idea as old as Quantum Electrodynamics (and probably older). It has always puzzled people why QED predicts a huge cosmological constant (giving rapid acceleration) but that we obviosuly dont see this (the recent observations are of a cosmological constant about 10^120 times smaller than ZPE would predict).

For people who doubt the "nonlocality" of QM really being not local, let me try and ask you how you win the following game. You and a friend are placed in separate rooms, and then each given either an orange or an apple - you have no idea which you'll be given. You can either eat it or not. Now, if youre both given a apple, then you must take opposite actions - one must eat it, the other must not. However if either (or both) of you get an orange then you must both do the same thing (either both eat your piece of fruit, or both leave it).

It'll take you less than a few minutes to convince yourself you cannot "logically" do it. Of course if the two of you could communicate then you'd be fine - thus we may spearate you by a few light years to stop you cheating. However, if you had access to quantum systems, you could win a game like this every single time - no matter how far separated you are... Basically, you each measure one of an entangled pair of systems - photons or spins say - then either eat or not eat your piece of fruit according to the outcome.

In a consistent histories interpretation, after the game is played (and won!) one can say something like "you possessed the property of eating lemons while your friend possessed the proerty of eating oranges" and thus you managed to win the game. Fine - tell me how I can be so certain in advance, since I dont know what fruit I'm going to receive, that I can win the game every single time. At its deepest level consistent histories denies the person giving you the fruit the ability to choose it as they wish...
 

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