You Just Keep Sinning

[kuroyume0161]

Weren't those all supposedly written by Paul? The one who never met Jesus, and certainly wasn't there when He was making pronouncements? How does Paul get to say what Jesus meant?

I was going to interject the same argument but wanted to go through the NT books first to see who was all there. Paul is certainly prominent after the Gospels but other epistles are purportedly from direct disciples (Peter, John, James). And Acts covers the aftermath relayed in the Gospels.

It is difficult to assign authority in christian doctrine with everyone claiming apostleship or better revelation or devotion. There are the apocrypha which could be included for study despite their noncanonality - if we ignore the 'wisdom' used to determine canonical or apocryphal texts. This would extend the available arguments and include gnostic ideas.

Therein lies the problem. Since what is deemed tenet/dogma/canon is a matter of authority, it will be difficult to determine whose arguments should garner the most weight from this distance. Obviously, Jesus gets top billing. But then there is some reason to doubt that everything put into his mouth was actually said by him. Instead, most of this was coopted from other sources, some of it was added in order to bolster a particular philosophy, probably some of it was actually removed and we know nothing of it (or little of it from extra-biblical sources or just interpretative hints in biblical sources).

Of course, this is one reason why I am no longer a christian. I started out as a Roman Catholic (family), moved onto Jewish Christian (Messianic Jew), moved onto Pentacostalism, then I left (I had a short stint with Jehovah's Witnesses but that was more related to a bent for my girlfriend than a bent for JWs). There is no 'all-encompassing' belief system called christianity.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Weren't those all supposedly written by Paul? The one who never met Jesus, and certainly wasn't there when He was making pronouncements? How does Paul get to say what Jesus meant?

Paul met Jesus after His Ascension. The leaders of the Church spoke with the authorty of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit; Paul was one of these.

 

[kuroyume0161]

Paul met Jesus after His Ascension. The leaders of the Church spoke with the authorty of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit; Paul was one of these.

Evidence that this happened, that it can happen, that a God or Holy Spirit exists, and that Paul had any authority?

 

[slingblade]

Paul met Jesus after His Ascension.

I doubt that.

The leaders of the Church spoke with the authorty of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit

That's what they say to get you to obey them. I can't understand how I ever managed to believe this was true. I can't fathom how any adult buys into it, even though I did, for a while. Kids, sure. But not grown-ups.

Paul was one of these.

I doubt it.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Paul met Jesus after His Ascension. The leaders of the Church spoke with the authorty of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit; Paul was one of these.

Evidence that this happened, that it can happen, that a God or Holy Spirit exists, and that Paul had any authority?

What he said. Well, Paul had authority, but only because he asserted it.

 

[I Ratant]

What he said. Well, Paul had authority, but only because he asserted it.

.
I've watched Jim Bakker say that he was talking to god earlier in the day, on his tv program.
God failed to give Jim a heads-up on his future jail experience.
That wasn't nice!

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

You Just Keep Sinning

You just keep giving me reasons to.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

Bollocks

Care to elaborate? All you have to do as a Christian is ask forgiveness. You can be the most despicable person in history and if you merely ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and claim you believe in Christ, supposedly you are equal to Mother Theresa.

At the same time the most altruistic person on the planet who does not believe in God gets to spend eternity in hell.

 

[kuroyume0161]

Care to elaborate? All you have to do as a Christian is ask forgiveness. You can be the most despicable person in history and if you merely ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and claim you believe in Christ, supposedly you are equal to Mother Theresa.

At the same time the most altruistic person on the planet who does not believe in God gets to spend eternity in hell.

Well said.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Paul met Jesus after His Ascension. The leaders of the Church spoke with the authorty of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit; Paul was one of these.

So, you have to take their word that they're all that? Isn't that sort of like saying that Victor Lustig really had the French government's authority to sell the Eiffel Tower, because he said he did? What's the difference between trusting Paul that (in an incident nobody else saw) he was told by Jesus to do that, and trusting Lustig that (again, unknown to anyone else) the French government told him to sell the tower?

 

[AvalonXQ]

So, you have to take their word that they're all that? Isn't that sort of like saying that Victor Lustig really had the French government's authority to sell the Eiffel Tower, because he said he did? What's the difference between trusting Paul that (in an incident nobody else saw) he was told by Jesus to do that, and trusting Lustig that (again, unknown to anyone else) the French government told him to sell the tower?

That's certainly a good question, but one for a different thread.
In this thread, we're talking about sin. The (somewhat) related question was asked on how a Christian knows, from reading the Bible, what sin is. That was a question I answered.
Now your asking the somewhat more tangential question of why we should believe the Bible at all. I agree it's a reasonable question, but not one for this thread.

 

[I Ratant]

Care to elaborate? All you have to do as a Christian is ask forgiveness. You can be the most despicable person in history and if you merely ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and claim you believe in Christ, supposedly you are equal to Mother Theresa.

At the same time the most altruistic person on the planet who does not believe in God gets to spend eternity in hell.

.
Saddam was sure praying when they put the rope around his neck!
Whatya wanna bet Allah forgave him?

 

[Elizabeth I]

That's certainly a good question, but one for a different thread.
In this thread, we're talking about sin. The (somewhat) related question was asked on how a Christian knows, from reading the Bible, what sin is. That was a question I answered.
Now your asking the somewhat more tangential question of why we should believe the Bible at all. I agree it's a reasonable question, but not one for this thread.

I think it is, since you are presenting statements in the Bible as evidence for the existence of sin. We certainly have the right to question the quality of your "evidence" and its sources.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This phrase gets thrown around a lot by the christians on this board.

While I understand most of the Chosen on this board can't really decide on which version of the christian god is the right one, I am curious to know what the differences are in regards to sin.

This is a three part question:

What exactly is sinning?

Is one sin worse than another?

Why do you feel atheists reject gods because they "want to keep sinning"?

Monster

It's a sin to tear little kids to bits via a bear. (The Curse of Elisha) It's a sin to kill everybody you don't have reserved for sex. (Several towns in Palestine.) It's a sin to kill a child who has never sinned. (ALL babies, born or unborn, during the "Great Flood".) It's a sin to kill people because somebody else did something you don't like. (The first born sons of Egypt.) It's a sin to torture and kill people because they don't agree with you. (Most of the people in South America when the Conquistadores came, and ALL of the victims of the Inquisition.)

I am a moral and ethical person, and don't remember a time when I strayed far from that for long, such actions were uncomfortable to me and I self-corrected quickly.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I think it is, since you are presenting statements in the Bible as evidence for the existence of sin. We certainly have the right to question the quality of your "evidence" and its sources.

You certainly have the right to question. But once I've made it clear what sin is from a Biblical point of view, and how a Christian figures that out, I've explained everything I feel the need to explain in this thread. For the purposes of a thread about what a Christian believes about sin, I'll give the Bible position. If you want to call into question the Bible itself, you can talk about it with someone else here or with me elsewhere; I consider it off-topic here.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

While the care for the thread's topic is very admirable, I fear it is somewhat misplaced. The third very explicit question in the OP is, "Why do you feel atheists reject gods because they "want to keep sinning"?" And it _is_ the one which gave the thread its title, so I think addressing it can't be too off topic.

It's a very overused charge that atheism is not, say, because the bible is unsupported fiction, but because of some desire to keep sinning.

In that context, I feel that it's useful to first establish whether I have any reason to believe that book of bad iron-age fiction. Otherwise the whole "you just want to keep sinning" becomes a canard.

 

[AvalonXQ]

While the care for the thread's topic is very admirable, I fear it is somewhat misplaced. The third very explicit question in the OP is, "Why do you feel atheists reject gods because they "want to keep sinning"?" And it _is_ the one which gave the thread its title, so I think addressing it can't be too off topic.

Oddly, the question itself assumes "You feel atheists reject gods because they 'want to keep sinning'." Since that doesn't apply to me, the third question from the OP isn't one I'm addressing at all.

 

[six7s]

Paul met Jesus after His Ascension. The leaders of the Church spoke with the authorty of God through the influence of the Holy Spirit; Paul was one of these.

You're just making this up

 

[six7s]

Being a good person in terms of how you interact with other humans is not relevant. Only god worship is relevant.

Bollocks

Care to elaborate?

I can only try - please note, in quoting woo I ain't suggesting that teh woo is twoo...

Matthew 25

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Of course, there's nothing to stop a christian being a complete and utter bastard from birth up until moments before death, then nipping in with a quick 'bless me father for I have sinned', especially for the catholics who have - scuse teh pun - a bit of a monopoly on those 'get out of hell free' cards

At the same time the most altruistic person on the planet who does not believe in God gets to spend eternity in hell.

Depends on which chapters and verses you select to harvest your cherries

 

[Monster Machine]

You certainly have the right to question. But once I've made it clear what sin is from a Biblical point of view, and how a Christian figures that out, I've explained everything I feel the need to explain in this thread. For the purposes of a thread about what a Christian believes about sin, I'll give the Bible position. If you want to call into question the Bible itself, you can talk about it with someone else here or with me elsewhere; I consider it off-topic here.

Avalon - your response to the question about sin is very subjective. Are you implying that your way of interpretation is the only right way? You seem to speak with final authority...

TBH, I have found your posts to be of the Joel Osteen variety. Your spin of selected verses gives the impression of a scolding rather than a hell fire and brimstone response from god where sin is concerned. But I thank you for participating.


You just want to keep sinning is the mantra of certain posters on the board to explain why an atheist is what s/he is. And yet they have not brought forth a reasonable explanation for what this actually means. I find this frustrating because it's an accusation that no one seems to want to explain. It's also meant (as far as I am concerned) as an insult to the atheist.

Should I say "You're a fundie because you're weak and you have to rely on a sky daddy to keep you in line"? when I am told I am an atheist because "I just want to keep sinning?" To me it's the same thing.

Insulting.

Monster