You Just Keep Sinning

[JenseitsDavon]

What about the goats, though? I mean, I know they're more fun when they're dead, but only til they start to go runny. Then there's the hassle with getting the (now liquifying) carcass to Cthulu's (May He Reign Forever In Darkness) Pit, finding a virgin to sacrifice before you offer up the goat, and so on and so forth. You know the drill. Easier by far to just leave em alive, IMHO. This way, you can get the Marquis and Shemp to come over, too! Everybody wins.






ETA: Dangit Ron, sticking something useful in between the OT replies . . . grumblegrumblegrumble . . .

 

[grayman]

A guy at work uses the line, "We are all sinners..." , to which I usually reply, "Only because your superstition says so".

 

[AkuManiMani]

A "sin" is anything that takes a person farther away from god, whether actions or thoughts.

I think the only coherent definition of god I've heard of (other than "god is the universe") is "god is love". If a person acts out of compassion/empathy for others they would be closer to "god"; a person who "sins" acts contrary to such a virtue and could be described as farther from "god".

Thats just about the only way I can think of injecting a moral dimension into the whole "god" equation without dreaming up some anthropomorphic cosmic tyrant. Somehow, I think that most fundies wouldn't go for such a definition, for obvious reasons

 

[JenseitsDavon]

God is Love, Love is Blind, I am Blind, therefore I am God?

 

[AvalonXQ]

The general principle of sin is what has been pointed out earlier: something that separates you from God.

The basic Christian commandments are to love God and love humans.
Loving God requires seeking out His designs for your life and following those, it means being obediant to what He requires of you, and it means working to emulate Him in attitude and action.
Loving humans means having self-esteem and esteem for others, working to help rather than harm others, maintaining a reputation for honesty, generosity, and kindness, making yourself and others happy, and going out of your way to show others how to love God and humans, also.

In general, sin happens when someone chooses to act in a way that's not consistent with the above. However, because the major elements of Christian living and of sin are based largely on attitude and emotion, rather than specific physical actions, there IS a lot of leeway in pinning down what exactly is sin for each individual.
Paul addressed this issue with the Romans, as follows:

Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written:
“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

tldr: Our responsibility is to help each other, to know that our own conscience is clean, but also not to put others in a position where our actions will hurt their ability to be clean according to their own consciences. The specific acts are much less important than the thoughts, emotions, and intents behind them.

 

[AkuManiMani]

God is Love, Love is Blind, I am Blind, therefore I am God?

That would explain why god is so ineffectual

>_>

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sometimes JREFers encounter Christians who tell lies in their efforts to bring people to Jesus. Does that type of lie take a person farther from God?

In my opinion, yes.

 

[D'rok]

Loving God requires seeking out His designs for your life and following those, it means being obediant to what He requires of you, and it means working to emulate Him in attitude and action.

Which, in practice, means using the concept of God as an echo chamber to validate what one already believes.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18216-dear-god-please-confirm-what-i-already-believe.html

 

[Darth Rotor]

If I'm already as far away from god as possible, I can't sin anymore. Cool.

What a stroke of ill fortune: what fun can you have now?

 

[aviolet4u]

Just keep sinning
Just keep sinning
Just keep
Sinning sinning sinning


Isn't that a song? Oh nevermind its swimming

 

[Darth Rotor]

The general principle of sin is what has been pointed out earlier: something that separates you from God.

Snip a nice discussion of above.
...
Our responsibility is to help each other, to know that our own conscience is clean, but also not to put others in a position where our actions will hurt their ability to be clean according to their own consciences. The specific acts are much less important than the thoughts, emotions, and intents behind them.

I thought I'd take a peak at the CCC to see what is said about Sin: there is quite a bit that is RCC specific in terms of practice ...

1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church.

1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them.

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

I think those passages are generally consistent with what you presented.

DR

 

[aviolet4u]

I personally choose not to see myself as an impure person, a sinner. I just treat people how I would want to be treated and try to live by that rule.

Hurting people can also include doing things to harm yourself like being addicted to drugs, alcohol or heck even sex. If there are repercussions that not only affect you mentally and physically but also your loved ones then try to seek help. You don't have to be afraid of offending a God thats stalking you 24/7.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Which, in practice, means using the concept of God as an echo chamber to validate what one already believes.

Fortunately, this is not the case -- because the basis for a Christian to determine what God expects is more than just what that Christian thinks. There's also the Bible and the Church. Through study, experience, and interaction with other Christians, we gain a better understanding for what God is looking for. It's a very individualized search, but in no way a fully arbitrary or subjective one.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

And based on posts here on the forum, very subjective.

I'd like to see some specifics.

Does smoking take me further from god? Saying "Fudge" when I really wanna say "****" - does that take me further from god?

Apparently, us atheists enjoy teh sin. I wanna know what sins I am committing.

Monster

According to _some_ fundies pretty much just being atheists means we probably raid christian villages, chase off their women and rape their horses... oh, crap... I've been doing it all wrong all this time

 

[D'rok]

Fortunately, this is not the case -- because the basis for a Christian to determine what God expects is more than just what that Christian thinks. There's also the Bible and the Church. Through study, experience, and interaction with other Christians, we gain a better understanding for what God is looking for. It's a very individualized search, but in no way a fully arbitrary or subjective one.

Did you read the article? You just confirmed its conclusions. The Bible, the Church, the community of believers and the individual Christian are all content creators. God is the receptacle for the content, not the source.

In other words: "These findings help explain why supernatural religious agents are often attributed a physical form and issue edicts that resemble the social practices of the culture from which they emerge."

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Fortunately, this is not the case -- because the basis for a Christian to determine what God expects is more than just what that Christian thinks. There's also the Bible and the Church. Through study, experience, and interaction with other Christians, we gain a better understanding for what God is looking for. It's a very individualized search, but in no way a fully arbitrary or subjective one.

Except each takes from the Bible what they want, and file the rest under one of:

- it's OT so it doesn't matter

- it's NT, but surely Paul/Matthew/Jesus/whatever didn't mean it literally

- it's NT, but probably just a later addition / liberal spin / whatever, so it can be ignored

- well, surely sky-daddy will forgive me if I pray harder

To give an illustration of the absurd cherry picking involved, apparently I'm supposed to believe that they only don't kill because god said "thou shalt not" and commandments are like some sort of natural law... but 2-3 other commandments from those 10 are ignored anyway.

Sorry, it _is_ an echo chamber.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Did you read the article? You just confirmed its conclusions.

No. I just denied its conclusions. I claim that Christian growth and belief is individualized but not subjective.

The article confirms that people who believe in God show a strong correlation with what they believe, and what they believe God believes. Why is this a surprise to anyone? Would you genuinely expect those who claim to follow God would also claim to disagree with Him?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Sorry, it _is_ an echo chamber.

Sorry, it's not. You read the Bible, you study it, you understand it, you do what it says. You don't re-interpret it because you don't like what it says, and you don't cherry-pick.
But not cherry-picking means not cherry-picking, which also means every part is read in context. You have to be ready to accept that your current understanding of Scripture may be skewed in some places. That's what I mean by, it's not an echo-chamber. It's a guide.

 

[D'rok]

No. I just denied its conclusions. I claim that Christian growth and belief is individualized but not subjective.

You realize that that's a contradiction in terms, yes? If a belief is individualized, it is subjective by definition. An individual is a subject, not an object.

The article confirms that people who believe in God show a strong correlation with what they believe, and what they believe God believes.

Yup.

Why is this a surprise to anyone?

It isn't, really.

Would you genuinely expect those who claim to follow God would also claim to disagree with Him?

Of course not. But it is plainly obvious that God agrees with believers because believers are determining the content of God's belief based on their own subjective considerations and those of the community of believers within which they socialize.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You realize that that's a contradiction in terms, yes? If a belief is individualized, it is subjective by definition. An individual is a subject, not an object.

It's not contradictory, no. If there is a single, objective correct answer for each person, but that answer may be different for each person, than the trait in question is individualized but not subjective. Body weight, birthdate, and legal name are all examples of this. So, I claim, is God's intention for a Christian.