You be the judge (sentencing)

anglolawyer said:
I am predicting these will be at the tougher end of the scale. :)

Are your Case A sentences to run concurrently or consecutively?
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Concurrently. Honestly, this was just some vandal, rather than a sick dog who actively harmed the most vulnerable in society.
 
MikeG said:
I don't recognise the connection between posting a video and perverting the course of justice, but if he was found guilty of that , then maybe 18 months prison, and he will win on appeal.
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From the OP, I gather he had a distinctive symbol or 'tag', which he used when vandalising other people's property. It sounds like the YouTube video shows someone else using this tag in an act of vandalism, implying that it's not the accused's tag. Given the cost of the damage he's done and his perverting the course of justice (a very serious offence), a short prison sentence seems likely.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I don't understand how posting something like that on YouTube could possibly be "perverting the course of justice". It can't be perjury if it wasn't advanced as evidence and sworn to in court, can it? There's no legal obligation to be truthful in posting videos to YouTube, is there?
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Couldn't be perjury, but if he knew he was being investigated and purposely posted a video intending to mislead the investigation then yeah, I could see that as obstruction of justice or something of that sort.
 
Ian Osborne said:
From the OP, I gather he had a distinctive symbol or 'tag', which he used when vandalising other people's property. It sounds like the YouTube video shows someone else using this tag in an act of vandalism, implying that it's not the accused's tag. Given the cost of the damage he's done and his perverting the course of justice (a very serious offence), a short prison sentence seems likely.
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You have it exactly Ian.
 
anglolawyer said:
Case B

83 year old man, well known and respected BBC TV and radio presenter of long standing. Pleaded guilty to 14 counts of sexual assault on minors all committed many years ago in the 60s and 70s. Activity included unwanted kissing and touching. Ages of victims range from 9 to 17. An allegation of rape ordered to lie on the file (so he was not convicted of that one).
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So does the case involve just "unwanted kissing and touching," or more? What kind of touching? Was the rape charge dropped because it didn't happen, or because the victim didn't want to testify, or what? Was there violence or threat of violence? "Unwanted kissing and touching" covers a lot of ground.
 
Bob001 said:
So does the case involve just "unwanted kissing and touching," or more? What kind of touching? Was the rape charge dropped because it didn't happen, or because the victim didn't want to testify, or what? Was there violence or threat of violence? "Unwanted kissing and touching" covers a lot of ground.
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From the BBC (I have blanked some bits out)

Hall, 83, of Wilmslow, Cheshire, admitted 14 offences that occurred between 1967 and 1985.

One of the girls was nine years old when Hall assaulted her, Preston Crown Court heard.

Solicitors representing some of the victims said proceedings are under way to sue Hall and the BBC for damages.

Judge Anthony Russell QC said Hall had a "darker side" and took advantage of his "status as a well-liked celebrity".

'Brazen attitude'
The BBC said it was "appalled" that some of his crimes took place in connection with his work at the corporation.

The ex-BBC Radio 5 live summariser and It's A Knockout host initially insisted the allegations were "pernicious, callous, cruel and above all spurious".


Alan Collins: "Civil claims are already under way in respect of the abuse they suffered"
His barrister Crispin Aylett, in mitigation, told the court the former broadcaster had "all of 13" victims compared to Jimmy Savile's 1,300.

Sentencing Hall, Judge Russell said: "It is clear from the victim statements that I have seen that your brazen attitude when first charged and the public protests of your innocence have added to the distress of some if not all of your victims."

Judge Russell said Hall had "given pleasure to millions of people" and was known for his "genial personality, charm, bonhomie and wit".

But the judge added: "There is a darker side to you, one hidden from public view until now, and a side which you were able to conceal taking advantage of your status as a well-liked celebrity."

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote

In the dock today is a frightened and bewildered 83-year-old man answering for the touching - no more, no less - of all of 13... victims over a quarter of a century ago”

Crispin Aylett
Hall's barrister
The judge said for most of Hall's offences the maximum sentence at the time they were committed was *** years, but the remainder carried a potential term of *** years.

He added: "The maximum sentence for this type of offence has been significantly increased, since these offences were committed, to *** years."

The Attorney General's Office said it had already had a "small number" of requests to review the sentence to determine if it was "unduly lenient".

Labour MP Emily Thornberry, the shadow attorney general, said the sentence should be extended due to the seriousness of the offences, the age of victims and the fact that he "compounded the victims' distress" by publicly denying the allegations at first.

A decision on whether to refer the case to the Court of Appeal on such grounds must be made within 28 days.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said the case shows "time is no barrier to justice".

Prosecuting barrister Peter Wright QC said Hall's first victim was 16 at the time of the assault, which happened in late 1967 or early 1968.

She met Hall when he presented her with an award at a school prize-giving and he invited the girl to record some songs at the BBC studios in Piccadilly, Manchester.

'Furious father'
The court was told Hall bought her a drink in a pub before sexually assaulting her in his car.
She burst into tears, telling her parents what had happened after Hall took her home.

Her angry father went to find Hall but he was nowhere to be seen. The family decided not to report the matter.

Preston Crown Court previously heard that in the 1980s Hall molested a nine-year-old girl by putting his hand up her clothing.


CPS Prosecutor Nazir Afzal: 'He abused his position as an adult and as a well known personality'
He also kissed a 13-year-old girl on the lips after saying to her: "People need to show thanks in other ways."

On another occasion in the 1970s he fondled the breast of a girl aged 16 or 17, the court was told.

Mr Aylett said his client had been arrested "as a consequence" of the investigations into Jimmy Savile, "who used young girls on a scale that is simply staggering".

He referred to the 1,300 complainants in the Savile case and said: "Instead, in the dock today is a frightened and bewildered 83-year-old man answering for the touching - no more, no less - of all of 13, not 1,300, victims over a quarter of a century ago."

In a statement, the corporation said: "The BBC is appalled that some of Stuart Hall's crimes took place in connection with his work at the BBC and offers an unreserved apology to the people he abused.

"Dame Linda Dobbs is leading a detailed investigation into Hall's conduct at the BBC and her conclusions will be published as part of the Dame Janet Smith Review later this year."

One count of rape will lie on the court file.
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A case lying on the file means it's not dismissed but is not being pursued presently. Probably the crown judged it would have a tough time proving it but didn't want to chuck its hand in yet.
 
anglolawyer said:
Three new cases on which to decide the sentence. All come from today's paper. Please guess before googling and please also refrain from publishing the actual outcomes for a page or two:

Case A

Graffiti - respectable 30 something surveyor convicted of an extended campaign of defacing railway architecture and rolling stock over a period of years, causing damage costing many thousand of pounds and putting some items out of service. Criminal damage. Also perverting the course of justice in posting film on youtube purporting to show someone else using his distinctive signature.

Case B

83 year old man, well known and respected BBC TV and radio presenter of long standing. Pleaded guilty to 14 counts of sexual assault on minors all committed many years ago in the 60s and 70s. Activity included unwanted kissing and touching. Ages of victims range from 9 to 17. An allegation of rape ordered to lie on the file (so he was not convicted of that one).

Case C - Jeremy Forrest

Even I get to answer this one as the trial is ongoing. 30 year old married maths teacher accused of child abduction after eloping with a 15 year old pupil to France. His defence (which she supports) is that he went with her to stop her committing suicide. As they had sex I assume he is also charged with having sex with a minor. 4 years is my guess.

Have at it.
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Case A.
Is he talented? Pay the costs of fixing and a fine, no jail time.

Case B.
Has he changed? Anything more recent than that? 5 years.

Case C.
Maths teacher. Caso chiuso.
 
anglolawyer said:
From the BBC (I have blanked some bits out)

.......
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Certainly sounds like real assaults. But they apparently happened 40 years ago or more. Is there a statute of limitations? Did anyone (especially the older kids) report him when the crimes occurred? If he had been arrested at the time, what would the penalty have been? What's his current health and life expectancy? Is he coaching youth sports, or bedridden in a nursing home? Maybe an appropriate sentence would be house arrest for the rest of his life, but I'm not sure it's a good use of tax dollars to lock him up.
 
Hi Rose

RoseMontague said:
Case A.
Is he talented? Pay the costs of fixing and a fine, no jail time.
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Not as far as I can tell from what I read.

Case B.
Has he changed? Anything more recent than that? 5 years.
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Nothing recent. As the case was very widely publicised anyone recent might have been expected to come forward.

Case C.
Maths teacher. Caso chiuso.
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LOL - you'll get us both banned. :)
 
anglolawyer you may know - just trying to find the sentencing guidelines for the last case, I know they were updated when the change of age of consent laws went through and made it 16 apart from those in a position of trust/control/influence over a 16 year old and then it is 18. So I was wondering if they changed anything for under the age of consent convictions?

Without that in front of me I'll make a stab at a 5 year sentence for him, sex register for 10 years afterwards and barred from anything to do with kids.
 
Bob001 said:
Certainly sounds like real assaults. But they apparently happened 40 years ago or more. Is there a statute of limitations? Did anyone (especially the older kids) report him when the crimes occurred? If he had been arrested at the time, what would the penalty have been? What's his current health and life expectancy? Is he coaching youth sports, or bedridden in a nursing home? Maybe an appropriate sentence would be house arrest for the rest of his life, but I'm not sure it's a good use of tax dollars to lock him up.
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No statute of limitations. He was caught up in the Saville tsunami. Apparently, it was normal for so-called celebrities to cop a feel of young females in the 60s and 70s (even if they were as young as 9, which is really weird) and for the victims to just put up with it. Then Jimmy Saville died a year or two ago and it turned out he had hundreds of victims, male, female, able and disabled (mentally and physically) so a great wave of complaints has been sweeping the UK swallowing up actors, DJs and others in the media. Hall was one of them.

When arrested he was still reporting on football matches for BBC radio and was widely regarded (not least by himself) as a lovable and quirky old character. Not bed-ridden, not a burden on the state.
 
Darat said:
anglolawyer you may know - just trying to find the sentencing guidelines for the last case, I know they were updated when the change of age of consent laws went through and made it 16 apart from those in a position of trust/control/influence over a 16 year old and then it is 18. So I was wondering if they changed anything for under the age of consent convictions?

Without that in front of me I'll make a stab at a 5 year sentence for him, sex register for 10 years afterwards and barred from anything to do with kids.
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I am not enough into crime to tell you anything about guidelines for offence C but consulting them before posting has to be cheating. That said, I prefer your prediction over mine.

Any thoughts on A and B?
 
B is a bit of a questionable example since the law has changed since the activities took place which messes with the sentace length.

A I'd expect something fairly minimal for the vandalism assuming no previous convictions with something a fair bit heavier for perverting the course of justice.

c)Since he was a teacher I'm expecting them to throw the book at him.
 
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anglolawyer said:
Case A

Graffiti - respectable 30 something surveyor convicted of an extended campaign of defacing railway architecture and rolling stock over a period of years, causing damage costing many thousand of pounds and putting some items out of service. Criminal damage. Also perverting the course of justice in posting film on youtube purporting to show someone else using his distinctive signature.
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Cut off his left thumb. Mount it as a trophy in the Hall of Justice.

Case B

83 year old man, well known and respected BBC TV and radio presenter of long standing. Pleaded guilty to 14 counts of sexual assault on minors all committed many years ago in the 60s and 70s. Activity included unwanted kissing and touching. Ages of victims range from 9 to 17. An allegation of rape ordered to lie on the file (so he was not convicted of that one).
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Cut off his penis. Display it in a jar, as a trophy in the Hall of Justice.

Case C - Jeremy Forrest

Even I get to answer this one as the trial is ongoing. 30 year old married maths teacher accused of child abduction after eloping with a 15 year old pupil to France. His defence (which she supports) is that he went with her to stop her committing suicide. As they had sex I assume he is also charged with having sex with a minor. 4 years is my guess.

Have at it.
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Cut off his right thumb. Mount it as a trophy in the Hall of Justice.

Each trophy to be photographically documented, and displayed on-line in the Hall of Justice's photo gallery of trophies (with a caption detailing the offence and the verdict).
 
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