Yoga still banned in Alabama.

[ahhell]

Meh...
1. Nothing to do with free speech, its a public school and a particular type of exercise.
2. It does have its roots in religion and some minority of folks yoga practioners do kind of take that seriously. Its enough that most people I know who do yoga get annoyed with spiritual stuff.

 

[Matthew Best]

This is Alabama we're talking about, so I'm sure the principled objection to having anything even slightly associated with religion in schools is also extended to anything remotely connected to Christianity, am I right?

 

[theprestige]

This is Alabama we're talking about, so I'm sure the principled objection to having anything even slightly associated with religion in schools is also extended to anything remotely connected to Christianity, am I right?

It would be unconstitutional to mandate Christian instruction in public schools. Allowing Christian instruction does not create a First Amendment exception to also allow other religious instruction.

 

[lomiller]

If we're going to recognize that Yoga is so intrinsically intertwined with religion that things like chanting and rituals such as religious gestures are a key part of it, then it actually doesn't belong in schools, any more than bible study does.

The ten commandments are intrinsically intertwined with the Christian religion. It doesn't follow that teaching children not to lie kill or steal should be banned from schools on the grounds they are "religious". Just being part of a set of religious teaching's doesn't mean things can't be taught or practiced outside a religious context.

2. The people in Alabama who want Yoga in schools seem to understand that too which is why they're attempting compromises like "okay, but what if no chanting?"

This seems more a case of choosing your battles. Why even create the appearance of religion when you can accomplish the same things without doing so? It doesn't mean that teaching yoga with chanting is automatically religious, it just means it's a silly thing to debate.

 

[lomiller]

Well what did you imagine that ringing bells and "meditating in Sanskrit" rather than English had to do with physical exercise, if you insist that this part of it wasn't woo silliness?

There are quite a few people who think mediation can help with performance in various sports. If these or any other benefits from mediation are real it's extremely unlikely to have any connection to Sanskrit or ringing bells so dispensing with them isn't a big deal. Conversely is someone says "I like the bells" how do we argue against it?

 

[Matthew Best]

Allowing Christian instruction does not create a First Amendment exception to also allow other religious instruction.

But it would be kind of hypocritical if it was happening, right?

 

[theprestige]

But it would be kind of hypocritical if it was happening, right?

I have no opinion about that. I was addressing PhantomWolf's incorrect claim that it would be unconstitutional to ban Hindu instruction in public schools.

 

[Thermal]

This thread has made me deeply ashamed of my inebriated observance of St Patrick's Day. Those evil-ass Christians get their religious hooks in you in insidious ways.

 

[Checkmite]

This seems more a case of choosing your battles. Why even create the appearance of religion when you can accomplish the same things without doing so?

This was one of my original points. You can just do completely normal stretch exercises, the kinds schoolchildren have been doing for decades in PE classes. People don't actually lose anything beneficial, in terms of physical exercise, by not doing yoga instead; and you get to avoid for instance having to do the mental gymnastics required to argue why chanting in a liturgical language is totally not religious and just a wellness thing, man.

 

[Olmstead]

This was one of my original points. You can just do completely normal stretch exercises, the kinds schoolchildren have been doing for decades in PE classes. People don't actually lose anything beneficial, in terms of physical exercise, by not doing yoga instead; and you get to avoid for instance having to do the mental gymnastics required to argue why chanting in a liturgical language is totally not religious and just a wellness thing, man.

Traditional PE exercises are an absolute joke though. I think Yoga would be better. (YMMV, but my PE classes seemed to want to raise the national BMI).

Better regular exercises would be even better of course.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well what did you imagine that ringing bells and "meditating in Sanskrit" rather than English had to do with physical exercise, if you insist that this part of it wasn't woo silliness?

I - and all of the other participants I spoke with about this* - looked at it in this way:

Firstly, it's relevant to know that in the (relatively) exertive forms of yoga that I practise, the last 5 mins of a typical 1-hour class are spent in a motionless relaxation posture. And - in an entirely non-spiritual way, I (and most others) find I can gain some real meditative benefit in those 5 minutes.

Some teachers spend the last minute or so of the 5 saying general meditative things like "Take this time to centre your mind and your body" or "Feel ready to awaken your senses again and face the day ahead with renewed passion". Now... some of this sort of stuff definitely comes close to the line into "New-age psychobabble", but I really don't mind it.

So on the extremely rare occasion that one teacher chose to do some Sanskrit chanting and bell ringing, it was unusual for sure. But it happened in that last minute or two of the relaxation period at the end of the class. We all treated it as nothing more than part of the relaxation/meditation process (much as, for example, some people who would in no way consider themselves religious Christians might feel calm if they listened to Gregorian Chant).

I have no idea as to the motivation and intent of the teacher in doing that, but as a "recipient", it didn't feel in any way like I was being in any way proselytised. It was pleasant, soothing and relaxing - that's as far as my feelings about it went/go.


* because, as I stated in my post, this was an extreme outlier so it was a topic of conversation for people after the class had ended

 

[LondonJohn]

There are quite a few people who think mediation can help with performance in various sports. If these or any other benefits from mediation are real it's extremely unlikely to have any connection to Sanskrit or ringing bells so dispensing with them isn't a big deal. Conversely is someone says "I like the bells" how do we argue against it?

Yep this.

And in fact I think that at least some of the instructors of this type of meditation are perfectly happy for people to take what they want out of it, without buying into the underlying religious motifs. But regardless of this, one certainty is that these sorts of meditative classes are not viewed - either by the teacher or by the participants - as any sort of religious (or even quasi-religious) or spiritual communion/congragation.

 

[LondonJohn]

Traditional PE exercises are an absolute joke though. I think Yoga would be better. (YMMV, but my PE classes seemed to want to raise the national BMI).

Better regular exercises would be even better of course.

I strongly believe that yoga in schools (as part of a mixed phys-ed curriculum, of course) would be a very good idea. Firstly - and it's a guiding principle of yoga - the individual participant is told to do as much or as little as they feel happy/comfortable with. And even though it sounds counterintuitive, I think that handing some autonomy over their bodies back to pupils might end up promoting a love of exercise and body care (in a way that telling pupils to vault over that horse, or run those 100m, might not do).

And secondly, I suspect that yoga might have beneficial effects upon a) classroom discipline and b) concentration in the classroom.

 

[catsmate]

This is Alabama we're talking about, so I'm sure the principled objection to having anything even slightly associated with religion in schools is also extended to anything remotely connected to acceptable Protestant Christianity, am I right?

 

[catsmate]

The ten commandments are intrinsically intertwined with the Christian religion. It doesn't follow that teaching children not to lie kill or steal should be banned from schools on the grounds they are "religious". Just being part of a set of religious teaching's doesn't mean things can't be taught or practiced outside a religious context.

It should be remembered that there are different versions of the "biblical" 'Ten Commandments'; the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox versions differ.

 

[catsmate]

This thread has made me deeply ashamed of my inebriated observance of St Patrick's Day. Those evil-ass Christians get their religious hooks in you in insidious ways.

St. Patricks's Day, like Easter, is a repurposed xian appropriation of older spring festivals.

 

[Dr. Keith]

My only exposure to Yoga has been through Jane Adams videos. I detected no religious undertones other than the word namaste being used once or twice per video. Which I equate to saying "bless you" when someone sneezes, but maybe it is far more insidious.

What I find funny about this is that my kids' schools didn't offer yoga, but one of the theater teachers used to do yoga in class because she didn't have time in the rest of her day. My kid, who hated all PE, really enjoyed the yoga and still does poses to this day when she feels stressed out. Man, good thing that lazy teacher wasn't in 'Bama.

 

[theprestige]

I strongly believe that yoga in schools (as part of a mixed phys-ed curriculum, of course) would be a very good idea. Firstly - and it's a guiding principle of yoga - the individual participant is told to do as much or as little as they feel happy/comfortable with. And even though it sounds counterintuitive, I think that handing some autonomy over their bodies back to pupils might end up promoting a love of exercise and body care (in a way that telling pupils to vault over that horse, or run those 100m, might not do).

And secondly, I suspect that yoga might have beneficial effects upon a) classroom discipline and b) concentration in the classroom.

Begs the question that public school PE teachers are qualified to conduct yoga sessions.

Probably it would be interesting to see who exactly wants to teach yoga in public schools, what qualifications they possess, and whether they're committed to a dispassionate, non-mystical curriculum of stretching and breathing.

Honestly I think yoga in public schools would be bad for yoga. Like all of those books that are required reading, and generations of students graduate with a deep hatred of those books.

The last thing the practice of yoga needs is high school gym teachers trying to make kids do it right. You wanna do yoga, or have your kids do yoga? Find a yogi that fits your personality and outlook, and have at it. Leave those poor public school kids and their PE teachers alone. Dodgeball is already bad enough, don't you think?

 

[BobTheCoward]

My only exposure to Yoga has been through Jane Adams videos. I detected no religious undertones other than the word namaste being used once or twice per video. Which I equate to saying "bless you" when someone sneezes, but maybe it is far more insidious.

What I find funny about this is that my kids' schools didn't offer yoga, but one of the theater teachers used to do yoga in class because she didn't have time in the rest of her day. My kid, who hated all PE, really enjoyed the yoga and still does poses to this day when she feels stressed out. Man, good thing that lazy teacher wasn't in 'Bama.

Glad they still do inefficient stretching, I guess. Better than none.

 

[quadraginta]

Ran across this article which, among other things, included this quote, with citations.

In other documents, ALSDE said teachers may instruct students on poses, exercises and stretches associated with the practice as long as the "course is not called yoga."​

So apparently the exercises are okay, but the rest is right out.