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Yankees go home!

Q-Source

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Jan 15, 2002
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A peace proposal was done by Saudi Arabia as a consequence of the inevitable wave of anti-war and anti-USA protests in this country and others in the region.

Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets yesterday in Syria, where the government is vehemently against the war.

Police in Beirut used tear gas to stop thousands of demonstrators from marching on the British embassy and witnesses said about 20 people were detained.

Protest marches also took place in Tunisia and Libya, and the Iraqi embassy in Algiers said some Algerians had volunteered to fight the US and British troops.
The Independent

From the same source, the exceptional journalist Robert Fisk heard this comment from an iraqi man:

We may not like our regime. But we fight for our country. The Russians did not like Stalin but they fought under him against the German invaders. We have a long history of fighting the colonial powers, especially you British. You claim you are coming to 'liberate' us. But you don't understand. What is happening now is we are starting a war of liberation against the Americans and the British."

No wonder why two powerful nations are taking so many days before defeating Iraq.

Q-S
 
Q-Source said:

No wonder why two powerful nations are taking so many days before defeating Iraq.

Q-S
Days......I don't believe anyone has ever claimed this would be over in Days. I believe very strongly that the invasion of Iraq was not necessary. Now it is happening I want to see it over as quickly as possible.. but to expected it would be achieved In days?

This is going to go on for weeks, possibly months. There will be a lot more casualties on both sides. Lets not assume the invaders have failed in thier plans because Iraq does not collapse in days. Things don't work like that.
 
Re: Re: Yankees go home!

Lets not assume the invaders have failed in thier plans because Iraq does not collapse in days. Things don't work like that.

Will they have won this "war on terrorism" when the regime collapses ? When this will fuel already important anti-american feelings among mulsims worldwide, more than likely resulting in more (not less) terrorism ? And this in turn results in even more wars.. etc, etc,.. In short, results in far more suffering, death and fear ?

You'd think they would have learned from the Isreali's with their conflict with the Palestine. They dont even have an army, but ask the Israeli how secure they feel.
 
Q-Source said:
A peace proposal was done by Saudi Arabia as a consequence of the inevitable wave of anti-war and anti-USA protests in this country and others in the region.


The Independent

From the same source, the exceptional journalist Robert Fisk heard this comment from an iraqi man:



No wonder why two powerful nations are taking so many days before defeating Iraq.

Q-S

<:rolleyes:>Obviously these people don't understand that we in the West know what's best for them... </:rolleyes:>
 
No wonder why two powerful nations are taking so many days before defeating Iraq.

Q-S [/B]
Iraq has the size of California. It hasn't even been a week.
You are a moron.
 
The Fool said:

This is going to go on for weeks, possibly months. There will be a lot more casualties on both sides. Lets not assume the invaders have failed in thier plans because Iraq does not collapse in days. Things don't work like that.

You think it may take months?

Are you suggesting that two powerful nations with the best armament in the World are not capable of defeating Iraq (the size of California) in a fast and effective way?

Well, my point is that most of the failure of the coalition forces to defeat Saddam is because there is a strong support within the country, and there is a strong anti-US feeling around the region.
 
Re: Re: Yankees go home!

BillyTK said:


Obviously these people don't understand that we in the West know what's best for them...

Yeah, the US imperialists attack their countries, they kill their people and they still wonder why they hate them :rolleyes:
 
I only hope the armchair warriors who already have the next 3 or 4 wars lined up and in the pipeline take the difficulty of this operation as a serious wake-up call.

But they won't. It's not THEY who have to do the dirty work.
 
Re: Re: Re: Yankees go home!

Q-Source said:


Yeah, the US imperialists go to their countries, they kill their people and they still wonder why they hate them :rolleyes:

Saddam is an @sshole, bomb Iraq!
Why's this such a hassle? Bomb Iraq!
You defend him, this is true
But he'd love to kill you too
Such an infidel are you! Bomb Iraq!

If the UN had some balls they'd bomb Iraq!
Resolutions? Broke them all! Bomb Iraq!
If you think Bush is a hater
You should live with a dictator
Shoot you now, ask questions later, bomb Iraq!

So you think it is too harsh to bomb Iraq?
That instead we should be kissing Saddam's crack?
Purse your lips, prepare to blow,
and if you can stoop that low,
Kiss his ass while you all go live in Iraq!

Many thanks to schplurg

MEXICAN GO HOME! :D
 
Q-Source said:


You think it may take months?

Are you suggesting that two powerful nations with the best armament in the World are not capable of defeating Iraq (the size of California) in a fast and effective way?

Well, my point is that most of the failure of the coalition forces to defeat Saddam is because there is a strong support within the country, and there is a strong anti-US feeling around the region.

We COULD do it in the 4 hours or so that it takes for a nuclear strike to reach Iraq. Is not doing so a sign of weakness?

We could speed things up by indiscrimately killing everything not wearing US or British fatigues. Is that what you'd like to see?

Christ, there's just no pleasing some people.
 
To put things in perspective, it took the Brits a month to whip the Argies during the Falklands. I don't think anyone has ever tried to paint that as a relative military failure for the UK armed forces.
 
Shane Costello said:
To put things in perspective, it took the Brits a month to whip the Argies during the Falklands. I don't think anyone has ever tried to paint that as a relative military failure for the UK armed forces.

You are right. I really don't question the capability of the USA and the UK to finish this War in days. They could do it if they want to, but Human Rights and the UN are watching, this is the only thing that stop them from doing so.

My point is (considering both limitations), they really don't have the moral support of Arab countries in the region. Did you read the link?. And they may not have the support of the iraqi population as they expected.
 
Q-Source said:


You are right. I really don't question the capability of the USA and the UK to finish this War in days. They could do it if they want to, but Human Rights and the UN are watching, this is the only thing that stop them from doing so.

Of course, it can't possibly be that Bush was telling the truth when he said he wanted to minimize civilian casualties and preserve as much infrastructure as possible. No, it's only the all-powerful judgment of the UN that's making the coalition play fair, right?

Nice propaganda.

My point is (considering both limitations), they really don't have the moral support of Arab countries in the region. Did you read the link?. And they may not have the support of the iraqi population as they expected.

Like I said, there's just no pleasing some people. These same countries were against us when we wasted 12 years waiting for Saddam to do the right thing. As for the Iaqi opinion, whaddaya say we suspend judgment until they're able to speak freely without the threat of their wives being raped and their children murdered?

If a free Iraq tells us to get the hell out, then I'll accept that. But I don't put credence in a population that has a gun to its collective head.
 
Originally posted by Q-Source:
You are right. I really don't question the capability of the USA and the UK to finish this War in days. They could do it if they want to, but Human Rights and the UN are watching, this is the only thing that stop them from doing so.

Sure, the UN is the only thing that stands between the allied forces and their latent desire to slaughter as many towelheads as possible. Pity they couldn't have had the same result on Saddam. :rolleyes:

If you think there is moral equivalence between the Iraqi leadership and the allied forces, read this:

www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16245

My point is (considering both limitations), they really don't have the moral support of Arab countries in the region.

They have their headquarters in Qatar, bases in Saudi Arabia and invaded from Kuwait.

I really couldn't care less about the "moral support" of Arab countries. A lot of desireable and virtuous things lack the "moral support" of Arab countries, such as democracy and equal rights for women.

Did you read the link?

I wouldn't read anything by Robert Fisk.
 
You are right. I really don't question the capability of the USA and the UK to finish this War in days. They could do it if they want to, but Human Rights and the UN are watching, this is the only thing that stop them from doing so.

This, I think, is only partially true. Yes, the UN and the world are watching (and being understandably critical). However, how much that would deter a "full-out" war, should the US undertake one is questionable...the UN watching and the world's human rights community watching did little to deter Saddam Hussien and his government. Indeed, the UN Human Rights Commission is currently being chaired by Lybia...so, the hypocracy meter is a bit off the charts there.

In any event, my point is that -- and I say this as one who opposes my government's policies that lead to this war -- unlike Saddam and his regime -- and in spite of propoganda efforts by my government that seek to minimize and deny anything negative about the war, its battles, etc. -- the bottom line is that the US military is trying to avoid civilian casualties. They are doing so because they do not see the mission as destroying Iraq or its civilian population, or, strangely enough conquoring Irag. Further, for the moment at least, restraint is on because -- whether Q wants to believe it -- American's (at least officially, and I would argue throughout the military at this time) see themselves as liberators and fighters against tyranny.

This doesn't mean that some incidents won't happen -- that civilians won't be killed, or that some crazy situation won't crop up and civilians masacered (a'la Mi Lia in Vietnam). It does mean, however, that -- and unlike the secrete deaths of the victems of Saddam -- it seems likely that the world will know about such an incident quickly, and that excesses will be punished (again, and unlike, the Iraqi regime that has always rewarded excesses).

The world is watching because the US and the Brits are letting it watch. And, because the US and the Brits are giving such unique access, excesses will be discovered and blown-up around the world. This is a choice that has been made, to let the world in on this. IT suggests not only confidence, but awareness that how the US/Brit military behaves is a critical factor in the ultimate success of the campaign.

Now, this could all change, and it should be compared to Iraq where even before the war access to the people and the regime was strictly controlled and limited. You will know when a US Bomb goes astray and kills civilians, you will never know whether or not the Iraqi Rep. Guard is marching civilians in front of its advance as a shield -- unless that regime is defeated.

Again, I am not a supporter of the war, but the truth about American and Brit actions in this war will be known -- both the good and ill, the heroic and prosaic. I do not believe that the world holds Saddam, or other dictators to the same standard.
 
Jocko said:

Of course, it can't possibly be that Bush was telling the truth when he said he wanted to minimize civilian casualties and preserve as much infrastructure as possible. No, it's only the all-powerful judgment of the UN that's making the coalition play fair, right?

Hard to believe, eh?


Nice propaganda.

I have to congratulate your country for the "nice" propaganda that plants everyday into its citizens' heads. However, it may not last for too long. There is a thread around in this forum where you can see pictures of what's going on, a picture of reality.


As for the Iaqi opinion, whaddaya say we suspend judgment until they're able to speak freely without the threat of their wives being raped and their children murdered?

If a free Iraq tells us to get the hell out, then I'll accept that. But I don't put credence in a population that has a gun to its collective head.

Why don't you give any credibility to the iraqi man's words?
 
Shane Costello said:

If you think there is moral equivalence between the Iraqi leadership and the allied forces, read this:

www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16245

What is exactly your point?

This just shows how hypocrites they are.
From that thread, I have taken some words from the speech of Lieutenant-Colonel Tim Collins, commanding officer of the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment:

[Excerpt]
"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people, and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them."

BS. The first thing that some of the US soldiers did when they entered Iraq was to put a US flag in some buildings. I saw the images by TV. It was pathetic and ridiculous. Hollywood style :rolleyes:



I really couldn't care less about the "moral support" of Arab countries. A lot of desireable and virtuous things lack the "moral support" of Arab countries, such as democracy and equal rights for women.

From whose point of view?

This is the same argument that Bush used to break diplomatic means.


I wouldn't read anything by Robert Fisk.

Yeah, you should close your eyes to reality. Just read "nice" propaganda.
 
Originally psoted by Q-Source:
BS. The first thing that some of the US soldiers did when they entered Iraq was to put a US flag in some buildings. I saw the images by TV. It was pathetic and ridiculous. Hollywood style

Lt Col Collins is with the British army. In any case the flag was taken down again very smartly.

From whose point of view?

What are you trying to say? Are you suggesting that gender equlaity and democracy are only relative rights, and that we are in no position to castigate nations that lack them?

Yeah, you should close your eyes to reality. Just read "nice" propaganda.

No, Robert Fisk is an idiot. He predicted armaggedon for the US and UK in the first Gulf War (wrong), predicted a second vietnam in Afghanistan (wrong), and claimed OBL would be pleased with developments very early on in the campaign (wrong again) and has consistently championed the PLO line vis a vis Israel (wrong, IMO at least).
 
headscratcher4 said:


This, I think, is only partially true. Yes, the UN and the world are watching (and being understandably critical). However, how much that would deter a "full-out" war, should the US undertake one is questionable...the UN watching and the world's human rights community watching did little to deter Saddam Hussien and his government. Indeed, the UN Human Rights Commission is currently being chaired by Lybia...so, the hypocracy meter is a bit off the charts there.

In any event, my point is that -- and I say this as one who opposes my government's policies that lead to this war -- unlike Saddam and his regime -- and in spite of propoganda efforts by my government that seek to minimize and deny anything negative about the war, its battles, etc. -- the bottom line is that the US military is trying to avoid civilian casualties. They are doing so because they do not see the mission as destroying Iraq or its civilian population, or, strangely enough conquoring Irag.

headscratcher4,

If you were the President of the USA, then I would support the War. You have noble reasons. But, reality and History say that the US agenda is far from just liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein.



Further, for the moment at least, restraint is on because -- whether Q wants to believe it -- American's (at least officially, and I would argue throughout the military at this time) see themselves as liberators and fighters against tyranny.

Which Americans?
Soldiers?, public opinion?, Bush?, who?

I think that we have to draw a line there. There is no doubt in my mind that the US troops do believe that they are fighting against tyranny and that their mission is to liberate iraqis.

But, we know that the reason behind this war is just to gain political power in a very oil-rich region.


The world is watching because the US and the Brits are letting it watch. And, because the US and the Brits are giving such unique access, excesses will be discovered and blown-up around the world. This is a choice that has been made, to let the world in on this. IT suggests not only confidence, but awareness that how the US/Brit military behaves is a critical factor in the ultimate success of the campaign.

It is the less they can do.


Again, I am not a supporter of the war, but the truth about American and Brit actions in this war will be known -- both the good and ill, the heroic and prosaic.

You are right. And I really want to be wrong about it.
We'll have to wait to see if the country don't just go from one subjugation level to another.
 

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