Yanis Varoufakis starts movement to democratize the EU

[GlennB]

IMF is making proposals that would benefit Greece.

So was Varoufakis/Greece in 2015.

If you can't understand the difference between making a proposal and making a demand you probably won't be able to understand much about the problem at all.

Logical fallacy noted, but we're still waiting for you to point out at what point Greece's creditors were unable to say: "Piss off and sort it out yourselves. You're on your own now."

 

[GlennB]

If anyone still needs an explanation as to why this won't happen, he, she or it is not competent on making comments on the question of the Greek debt.

The same logical fallacy. Translation: I'm unable to support my arguments with facts and have to resort to well-poisoning minor insults.

 

[McHrozni]

So was Varoufakis/Greece in 2015.

Nope. He was issuing demands which, if heeded, would benefit Greece, and if they went unheeded, he threatened with action, that would severely damage the EMU and EU - more so than Greece, or so he claimed.

This is a classic case of extortion.

Logical fallacy noted, but we're still waiting for you to point out at what point Greece's creditors were unable to say: "Piss off and sort it out yourselves. You're on your own now."

I believe it was July 10th, 2015 or thereabout, when Greece failed to get an agreement from its' creditors that would be in line with their demands. Merkel et.al. did the logical thing and asked for Greece to come up with a proposal the creditors would agree to.

Not surprisingly, the end result was actually worse for Greece than simply agreeing to the previous proposals from the creditors.

How on Earth can anyone still support those morons is beyond me.

McHrozni

 

[Roofgardener]

A sovereign parliament of the EU. Just as the is US Congress is the sovereign parliament of that Union.

......

I don't see any expansion of EU powers suggested, just an increase in democratic oversight and accountability.
....

I dunno CD.... isn't there a bit of a contradiction there ? The EU becomes the sovereign legislative body for all European countries (in the style of the relationship between Federal and State government in the US), and yet this is NOT an expansion of EU powers ?

 

[Beerina]

And as the US showed, the federal government will start with small powers (the only thing acceptable to the member states comprising it) and its powers will grow massively with very, very little change to the document governing the power relationship between the federal and the states.

That point should be key here in peoples' minds. It's ok if that's what you want*, but know it going in.




* Said sarcastically. It is not ok to change the meaning of the fundamental power relationship in massive ways sans voted-on amendments, a conscious, well-pondered decision by the electorate to grant new powers. And via supermajority at that -- if a massive change is not agreed by most people, it probably isn't a great idea, and should not take effect.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Yesterday in Berlin, there was an event to start DiEM25, the "Democracy in Europe Movement ... 2025". Varoufakis is the head honcho seen in their video ad (with music by Brian Eno who is on board) jogging into the future:


Motto: "The European Union will be democratized. Or it will disintegrate!" I think there's truth to that and a movement to counter all that PEGIDA/UKIP neo-nationalism and fear mongering - based in part on valid criticism of the EU as it is - is indeed needed. In an op-ed in The Guardian a couple of days ago, Varoufakis writes:

Remains to be seen how serious and practical that is, and how much of a personality cult it might contain, but in principle I say good luck!

I agree with his premise entirely. There is an inexorable logic once a common currency is in place, part of which is a common fiscal policy. No way you can really get that to work right without making it transparent and accountable, thus an EU supranational parliament for real. This does not have to mean an immediate drastic reduction in national power, as a common fiscal policy is already being enforced by blunt rules (deficit target) that are selectively enforced, and arm twisting. Time to bring it out into the open and make it work democratically.

Would be interesting to see a 22nd century in which states rights are fought over in Europe, giving Americans a chance to hee-haw in the other direction, while a North America finally reorganizes regionally and stops giving ten hicks in North Dakota the same power as millions in NY.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I agree with his premise entirely. There is an inexorable logic once a common currency is in place, part of which is a common fiscal policy. No way you can really get that to work right without making it transparent and accountable, thus an EU supranational parliament for real. This does not have to mean an immediate drastic reduction in national power, as a common fiscal policy is already being enforced by blunt rules (deficit target) that are selectively enforced, and arm twisting. Time to bring it out into the open and make it work democratically.

Well said, and a good answer to Roofgardener's question. It's not about expansion of power, it's about making the existing power work democratically.

I dunno CD.... isn't there a bit of a contradiction there ? The EU becomes the sovereign legislative body for all European countries (in the style of the relationship between Federal and State government in the US), and yet this is NOT an expansion of EU powers ?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Well said, and a good answer to Roofgardener's question. It's not about expansion of power, it's about making the existing power work democratically.

OK, now I watched the video. A tad backward-looking in that it references the past crisis (albeit still ongoing, but changing in scope and dynamics). Although I agree with most everything, I dislike the us vs them tone. There is an inner jerk in everyone, so it is better to push the solution, more democracy, without helping people see themselves as error-free and others full of blame. That everyone is error-prone, and no one error-free, is one of the strongest arguments in favor of democracy: there are no natural elites.

In that light, it is contradictory to demonize current elites while not recognizing that, say, a plumber who works for cash without paying VAT, is also messing up. Without that, the common man - in some form - can be mistakenly implied to be more virtuous by nature, another form of elitism. Democracy: best form of government, because jerks.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I would see it the other way around: pretending that the current state of the E.Union is just a bug, not a feature, would fly in the face of the experience Varoufakis himself and his core audience, the people in the southern periphery at the receiving end of that system have made.

 

[CapelDodger]

I dunno CD.... isn't there a bit of a contradiction there ? The EU becomes the sovereign legislative body for all European countries (in the style of the relationship between Federal and State government in the US), and yet this is NOT an expansion of EU powers ?

The EU parliament's sovereignty would pertain to EU matters, not national matters, just as the US federal government is sovereign with regard to federal matters, not state matters.

 

[CapelDodger]

Would be interesting to see a 22nd century in which states rights are fought over in Europe, giving Americans a chance to hee-haw in the other direction ...

One could argue that Europe's already spent fifteen centuries on that fight while the US got it over with in just four years. Commendable efficiency.

 

[Roofgardener]

The EU parliament's sovereignty would pertain to EU matters, not national matters, just as the US federal government is sovereign with regard to federal matters, not state matters.

But is it not the case that - in the USA - Federal law trumps State law. The individual States can only legislate in areas that the Federal government has not already legislated on ? (sort of.. "legislating between the gaps").

In effect, the federal government regards ANY matter in which it is - or is becoming - interested as a "federal matter". Hence the federal government has absolute hegemony.

The EU has not reached that point yet; far from it. However, many people - myself included - believe that it desires to reach that point. Where existing treaties block this ambition, those treaties will be gradually dismantled or circumvented by salami tactics; one slice at a time.

 

[Beerina]

A sovereign parliament of the EU. Just as the is US Congress is the sovereign parliament of that Union.

A principle knows as "subsidiarity", where decisions are made at the appropriate level.

I don't see any expansion of EU powers suggested, just an increase in democratic oversight and accountability. More attention being given to subsidiarity might well see a transfer of EU power down to more local levels and to governing bodies under local democratic oversight. If the EU as currently governed is overly centralising, as many critics claim, such a transfer would indeed be inevitable.

A pipe-dream, perhaps, but then again possibly visionary.

More democracy means more politicians loudly bloviating to the people to give them stuff which means more assumption of the power to implement those things.

It will take decades but it will happen. If this forum is around in 20 years, I expect one would see some supporters of this or that Euro-level law about to be passed, inconceivable today with the current power distribution ratios.

They probably won't even bother with whether the European-level parliament was authorized to create such laws, and stigmatize those who fuss over such trivialities standing in the way of progress.