Yah, outsourcing is great!

[epepke]

The following is an undedited transcript of several chat sessions I had when trying to resolve a problem with my DSL. One might reasonably wonder why I should expend the effort, but after a couple of sessions it became sort of a game; I wanted to see how long I could go before I got someone to admit that they didn't know what the problem was. The failure of this is what stands out in my mind as the most important lesson about the vagueries of outsourcing to another culture.

I did resolve the problem by other means.


'Sindhu K' says: Thank you for contacting EarthLink LiveChat, how may I help you today?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Issue: Cannot connect to www.nsbasic.com (64.62.217.19) Cannot even ping, though obviously nslookup works. I've verified with the site owner that this is the valid IP address. Site is in Canada.
Sindhu K: Please hold on as I check it at my end.
Sindhu K: I am able to open the above site.
Sindhu K: Please try opening the link given below.
Sindhu K: http://www.nsbasic.com/
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Fails.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: ping www.nsbasic.com also fails
Sindhu K: Okay. Have you tried to access by power cycling the DSL modem?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: yes, several times
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I have never been able to access this site.
Sindhu K: Okay. To best resolve this issue, I suggest you to try the following steps.
Sindhu K: 1. From the Start menu, choose Run
2. In the Open field, type winipcfg (Windows NT/2000 type in cmd)
3. Click the OK button
4. Click the Release All button (Windows NT/2000 type ipconfig /release & hit ENTER)
5. Click the Renew All button (Windows NT/2000 type ipconfig /renew & hit ENTER)
6. Click the OK button (Windows NT/2000 type exit & hit ENTER). You have successfully released and renewed your computer's IP information. #PFR#/BBT/Wir/Gen/ReleaseRenew
ericpepke@earthlink.net: OK, still fails, which isn't surprising, because I can't get to it through my BSD or Linux boxes either.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: and no, they're not locally networked--
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I unplug the cable from the DSL modem and plug it into one machine at a time.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I have no local router; just going through the DSL modem.
Sindhu K: Okay. Please try the steps given above.
Sindhu K: I have given the steps to release and renew the IP in your computer.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I did. I told you that after doing that, it still fails.
Sindhu K: Can I know when you have done this IP release?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I just did it. Again.
Sindhu K: You may need to restart the computer to work these new settings.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Well, if I do that, I'll lose this chat session. How can I get more help if that doesn't fix the problem?
Sindhu K: The issue will be resolved completely. If you need any assistance, you please contact us. We can able to see your previous chats if you come to LiveChat with the same email address. So, any one can help you.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: OK, I'll try it.
Sindhu K: Okay. Thank you for using EarthLink LiveChat. Should you need further assistance, please feel free to contact us again.
Chat session has been terminated by the site operator. When you close the chat window a survey window will open. Please take a minute to fill in the survey and let us know how your chat session was.


'SudhirK' says: Thank you for contacting EarthLink LiveChat, how may I help you today?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I cannot connect to www.nsbasic.com. This is the second chat session; please see record of previous session for more details.
SudhirK: Okay, please hold on while I check your previous chat.
SudhirK: http://www.nsbasic.com/
SudhirK: Please try visiting the above given link and let me know the result.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: It fails. It times out.
SudhirK: Are you able to browse other websites ?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Yes. Plenty of them.
SudhirK: Is the problem with, only this website?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: There are three websites that I have never been able to access:
ericpepke@earthlink.net: www.nsbasic.com
ericpepke@earthlink.net: www.tanzanite.to
ericpepke@earthlink.net: www.cnn.com
SudhirK: Okay, please hold on while I check it.
SudhirK: Let me know your Operating System.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Several: Windows ME, Mac OSX 10.2, and SuSe Linux 8
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I am currently on the Windows ME box
SudhirK: Click on Start -> Run
ericpepke@earthlink.net: ok
SudhirK: Then type ping www.nsbasic.com -t and click on Ok and let me know the result
ericpepke@earthlink.net: It times out. I mentioned in the first message that I can't even ping the site.
SudhirK: Are you getting the same result for www.tanzanite.to and www.cnn.com ?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Yes. Both time out.
SudhirK: Okay.
SudhirK: Please hold on for a moment.
SudhirK: 1. Click on Start -> Settings -> Control Panel -> Dial-Up Networking.
2. Highlight the connection that is having issues.
3. Click on the File Menu -> Choose Properties.
4. Click on the Networking Tab.
5. Click on the "TCP/IP Settings" button.
6. Tell me what is listed for the Primary and Secondary DNS. #PFR#/DUT/Dia/PC/WinME/CheckDNS
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I'm not using dial-up networking; I have DSL. The name servers are in the DSL PROM.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Primary 199.2.252.10
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Secondary 204.177.214.10
ericpepke@earthlink.net: DNS appears to be working, because it finds the correct address for all three sites I listed.
SudhirK: Type the following DNS numbers.
Primary: 207.69.188.185
Secondary: 207.69.188.186
SudhirK: Then click on Ok.
SudhirK: Then click on Ok.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: E.g. www.nsbasic.com returns 64.62.217.19, which is correct
ericpepke@earthlink.net: OK, let me try that with the modem, just a sec.
SudhirK: Then disconnect from the Internet and restart the computer and reconnect to the Internet to test the new settings.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I don't see what rebooting the computer will do, but I will do as you as and also power-cycle the modem. Bye.

'NatarajB' says: Thank you for contacting EarthLink LiveChat, how may I help you today?
ericpepke@[url]www.earthlink.net:[/url] :
NatarajB: Is there something I can help you with?
ericpepke@[url]www.earthlink.net:[/url] I cannot connect to www.nsbasic.com. Please see previous chats for more information. Additional data: since I made the DNS changes suggested previously, nslookup no longer works on www.nsbasic.com.
NatarajB: Please hold on. I will go through your previous chat.
NatarajB: Thank you for being hold.
NatarajB: Please clear the cache that the browser storing by following the steps given below.
NatarajB: Go to My Computer -> Control Panel -> Internet or Internet Options. Here you will find a Delete Files button in the Temporary Internet Files section. Simply click that to clear your browser's cache.#PFR#/DUT/Bro/PC/IE6/ClearCache
ericpepke@[url]www.earthlink.net:[/url] Since I can't even ping, I don't see how this will help, but I'm doing it anyway.
ericpepke@[url]www.earthlink.net:[/url] OK, done. DNS seems to be working now, at least, but I still cannot connect.
NatarajB: Please reset the web settings in the browser by following the steps given below to resolve the issue.
NatarajB: To Reset Web Settings and file associations:

1. Open My Computer.
2. Open Control Panel.
3. Open Internet Options.
4. Click the Programs tab.
5. Click the Reset Web Settings button toward the bottom (uncheck the Reset Homepage box if you want to keep your current Homepage).
6. Click Apply.
7. Click OK.

In most cases you will want to reboot your machine to test the new settings.#PFR#/DUT/Bro/PC/IE6/ResetWebSettings
ericpepke@[url]www.earthlink.net:[/url] Will try, though I doubt it will have an effect. Bye.


'NatarajB' says: Thank you for contacting EarthLink LiveChat, how may I help you today?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I cannot connect to www.nsbasic.com. Please see previous chat sessions for more info.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I talked to you last, I think.
NatarajB: Did you reset the web settings in browser?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Yes
ericpepke@earthlink.net: And rebooted
NatarajB: Please restart the computer to get effect the changes you made.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: I did restart. That's what "rebooted" means.
NatarajB: Let me know how did you reboot the system?
ericpepke@earthlink.net: By selecting Start - > Shutdown, choosing Restart and pressing OK.
NatarajB: Please hold on for a moment.
NatarajB: It seems that the changes may not be effected in your system. Please shutdown the system and wait for a moment and restart the system.
NatarajB: This should resolve the issue.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: OK, I'll try.
ericpepke@earthlink.net: Bye.

 

[a_unique_person]

When in doubt, they ask you to reboot windows. It may not achieve much, but it gets rid of you.

 

[Janus]

All large ISPs employ lobotomized monkeys to provide technical support. The fact that these monkeys are from a different culture is a side issue.

I actually had a very similar experience with our ISP at work. This was worse tho because the machine we were trying to contact was at our other office. If we moved ether machine to dial up it was fine. dsl2dsl was no go.

What annoyed me most was the cop-outs. Are you using a firewall? thats the problem! Are you near some sort of network? no wonder its doesn't work. Mind you this setups been fine for more than a year. It also worked fine after we switched ISP.

[edit for clarity]

 

[Zep]

Just as a heads-up while fixing your problem...!

SOME PC network cards will often retain any settings as long as they are powered up. This is REGARDLESS of whether the OS is running, rebooting, etc or not. You actually need to take the power off them to force them to reset (they load the settings from their ROM, which was loaded by the OS when you requested changes).

HOWEVER...many newer PC network cards will actually perform this cache refresh while powered on, and do not need to be power cycled.

As a rule, if there are changes to be made to a network card in your PC that requires a reboot to "make it take," consider powering off and back on just to be sure.

Be aware of this - it affects older PC models which are more likely to be using older network cards, including Linux boxes and Macs.

BTW, looks like your ISP or some step closer to the target is actively blocking access to the sites you want. If you can happily ping and browse other sites then the problem is outside your reach, I suspect. Unless you have a firewall setting somewhere that is blocking them?

Good luck!

 

[ZeeGerman]

It could also have something to do with your machine's Maximum Transfer Unit MTU which might be set to 1500 but your RASPPPoE can only handle 1492. Check here for further info (and a tool to help the problem)

Zee

 

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

Dear lord

Shesh, that is the worst ISP tsch support I've ever read, and I used to do that fora living.

Have you done traceroutes to each of the addresses? (I can't believe they didn't have you do that)

Stupid Companies outsourcing their tech support to India, to workers who just follow a stupid script and can't actually THINK if the issue isn't a simple one some trainer thought of while writing the manual.

SSR

But I'm not bitter!

 

[epepke]

Just as a heads-up while fixing your problem...!

Thanks, but it got fixed quickly after I picked up the phone and called someone.

BTW, looks like your ISP or some step closer to the target is actively blocking access to the sites you want. If you can happily ping and browse other sites then the problem is outside your reach, I suspect. Unless you have a firewall setting somewhere that is blocking them?

No, the problem turned out to be with the DSL modem. All the sites it blocked were Class A addresses on network 64. No other Class A addresses were blocked, nor were Class B and Class C addresses. I suspect a bloody stupid fencepost error on the part of the ROM-writers.

It was fixed by a shotgun approach, configuring it to act as a bridge instead of as a router. Which is what I wanted in the first place but didn't know how to do; I can handle my own routers, thankyouverymuch.

 

[epepke]

All large ISPs employ lobotomized monkeys to provide technical support. The fact that these monkeys are from a different culture is a side issue.

What gets me is that there was no mechanism for bumping up the problem a notch, nor any willingness by anybody to admit that they didn't know. Also the projection of absolute confidence, i.e.[/i} "this will resolve the problem" instead of "this should resolve the problem." NatarajB got it right, but there were some other instances where they didn't. It's jarring to see anybody not use "should" unless they are confident.

This may be a cultural problem. From anthropology, I know that cultures differ in the willingness to say "I don't know."

People will try cop-outs as a first line of defense. However, I maintained the chats, for my amusement, long beyond the point I would consider it reasonable for someone to say "I don't know" or put me in touch with someone who did.

When I called the phone number and talked with someone from the US, he was quite willing to say "I don't know, but let's try this." In less than an hour the problem was solved.

 

[a_unique_person]

Thanks, but it got fixed quickly after I picked up the phone and called someone.



No, the problem turned out to be with the DSL modem. All the sites it blocked were Class A addresses on network 64. No other Class A addresses were blocked, nor were Class B and Class C addresses. I suspect a bloody stupid fencepost error on the part of the ROM-writers.

It was fixed by a shotgun approach, configuring it to act as a bridge instead of as a router. Which is what I wanted in the first place but didn't know how to do; I can handle my own routers, thankyouverymuch.

What brand was it?

 

[epepke]

What brand was it?

Dunno. Sprint silk-screened their name on it, and the label on the bottom says Sprint Products Group. I doubt they had anything to do with the manufacture, though. It's a model 645.