Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

Garrison said:
When bombers did reach their targets the damage they could do, especially with the aircraft available in 1938, was far removed from what the advocates of air power claimed.
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One third of the bombs fell within 5 miles of target, didn't they?


Garrison said:
Perhaps if Chamberlain hadn't fallen for this hysterical vision of bomber power he might have made a better job of Munich.
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Yep.
 
Henri McPhee said:
The Germans managed it in the First World War, and I think there was quite a big bombing raid at Folkestone then, which was a British troop embarkation point at the time.
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I might be wrong, but I think I remember that during WWI the Germans occupied almost all Belgian territory, which made the distance to the UK and Folkestone much shorter...
 
Degeneve said:
I might be wrong, but I think I remember that during WWI the Germans occupied almost all Belgian territory, which made the distance to the UK and Folkestone much shorter...
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Expect that statement to be refuted with a quotation from the time of the Agadir crisis.
 
Degeneve said:
I might be wrong, but I think I remember that during WWI the Germans occupied almost all Belgian territory, which made the distance to the UK and Folkestone much shorter...
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British air intelligence were well aware of the range of German bombers in 1938, probably from Admiral Canaris and Colonel Oster. That information would have been given to Chamberlain. From the internet the Dornier was 800 nautical miles and the Heinkel even further:

Specifications[edit]

Performance
Maximum speed: 440 km/h (273 mph)
Range: 2,300 km (1,429 mi) with maximum fuel
Service ceiling: 6,500 m (21,330 ft)
Rate of climb: 20 minutes to 5,185 m (17,000 ft)
Wing loading: 137 kg/m² (28.1 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: .082 kW/kg (.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_111
 
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Henri McPhee said:
British air intelligence wrere well aware of the range of German bombers in 1938, probably from Admiral Canaris and Colonel Oster. That information would have been given to Chamberlain. From the internet the Dornier was 800 nautical miles and the Heinkel even further:

Specifications[edit]

Performance
Maximum speed: 440 km/h (273 mph)
Range: 2,300 km (1,429 mi) with maximum fuel
Service ceiling: 6,500 m (21,330 ft)
Rate of climb: 20 minutes to 5,185 m (17,000 ft)
Wing loading: 137 kg/m² (28.1 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: .082 kW/kg (.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_17
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Yes, and?

The point was that the RAF did have the fighters and radar to intercept those unescorted bombers in 1938.
 
Henri McPhee said:
British air intelligence wrere well aware of the range of German bombers in 1938, probably from Admiral Canaris and Colonel Oster.
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At no point has anyone claimed the bombers couldn't reach Britain, the issue that has been repeatedly explained to you is that without fighter escort they won't be getting back to Germany. Even with fighter escort in 1940 the Luftwaffe bombers suffered a high rate of attrition, how are the going to do better in 1938 flying alone? How are they going to bring about the defeat of Britain in a week?
 
ddt said:
Quoting this part to remind Henri that he still has to tell us how, in 1938, Germany was going to defeat the UK within a single week.
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I agree that Chamberlain knew about the German bombers in 1938. But Churchill only wanted war and dishonor. There was a bit of waffle about it on the BBC twenty or thirty years ago...
 
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theprestige said:
I agree that Chamberlain knew about the German bombers in 1938. But Churchill only wanted war and dishonor. There was a bit of waffle about it on the BBC twenty or thirty years ago...
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We already have our hands full with one Henri - you misspelled dishonour!
 
theprestige said:
I remember reading in Lord Beaverpoke's memoirs that Chamberlain knew about the German nuke program, but the Irish in the British secret service didn't warn Stalin until it was too late. I agree that Churchill would have canceled the RAF.
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You forgot to make some obscure reference to Rhodesia
 
jimbob said:
Yes, and?

The point was that the RAF did have the fighters and radar to intercept those unescorted bombers in 1938.
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I don't think that is scientifically reliable. There is a bit about British air defence capability at this website. It was not organised in 1938:

http://www.airdefence.org/

PREPARATIONS FOR WAR 1935-1939

In the early 1930s the War Office were aware that the sound sensors only provided limited early warning and they sought new ways of detecting and disrupting air attacks. In February 1935 an experiment was conducted in which a Heyford bomber was flown though the beam of a BBC radio transmitter at Daventry whilst the received radio signal strength was measured. It was noticed that the received signal varied as the aircraft flew in and out of the beam. Thus the principle of radar was discovered.

Much further work over the next few years led to the installation, by the start of WW2, of a chain of radars from Ventnor on the Isle of Wight to the Firth of Tay. This radar chain played a vital part in the defences of Britain during the second world war.
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The German bombers would have got through in 1938 unescorted in 1938. Fighter Command of the RAF was not organised, and neither was radar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_in_aviation

General Maurice Gamelin, France's Chief of Staff of National Defense, puts before Prime Minister of France Édouard Daladier an assessment stating that Germany has 5,000 aircraft and France only 500, that the British Royal Air Force and French Air Force combined cannot match the German Luftwaffe, and that France cannot hope for even minimal security against German air attack before 1940 unless it embarks on a large, new aircraft procurement program.
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Henri McPhee said:
I don't think that is scientifically reliable. There is a bit about British air defence capability at this website. It was not organised in 1938:

http://www.airdefence.org/
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So this site has basically two paragraphs on the period 1935-39 and based on this you have somehow concluded that British air defence was not organized in 1938. Actually that is unfair on the website because nothing on that page supports your statement.

Again, please provide an explanation of your claim Britain would be beaten in a week.

Oh and following up on this it occurred to me to check and the Knickbein radio navigation system use by the Luftwaffe to guide bombers apparently wasn't available until 1939.

Henri McPhee said:
The German bombers would have got through in 1938 unescorted in 1938. Fighter Command of the RAF was not organised, and neither was radar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_in_aviation
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Multiple things wrong with this post, saying there was no Fighter Command is not the same as saying British air defences were not organized. As has been pointed out before Chain Home radar was operating in 1938. Unless the Germans pull off a miracle it will be well into 1939 before they can mount any significant raids on the UK so the existence of Fighter Command in 1938 is probably academic. Gamelin was basing his statements on a wildly exaggerated estimate of Luftwaffe strength and quite possibly doing so to get more money for defence. Put it another way, you have yet again managed to be spectacularly wrong.

You consistently miss the larger picture, that comparing the overall military, economic and diplomatic picture of the real strength of Germany in 1938 versus its strength in 1939 Chamberlain's actions at Munich may well have benefited the Germans far more than the British.
 
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