Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[theprestige]

In case of Sealion in this discussion, it's almost the cknverse.

The enemy might do this, but then they're ******.

Report: If the enemy succeeds at this, we're ******.
Appendix to the Report: If the enemy tries this, they're ******.
Battle Plan from the Report: Let the enemy do this if they want.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, probably not just "let them do this". Someone would have calculated how many troops are nearby, how fast they can get their ass into gear and round up the paratroopers from the park while they're still wondering where in the urban maze their kit landed, etc.

But yeah, indeed that is the point of thinking up all possible scenarios. You come up with counters.

 

[Henri McPhee]

2. Yes, during 1940 there was a small skirmish going on in the air. Yes, the bombing of English cities gave the impression to the UK population that things were going really badly. Guess what - it was a false impression. the actual resilience of the civilian population, coupled with the ever increasing gap between the two air forces meant that the Germans were never going to win the air war.

I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?

 

[Garrison]

I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?

Hang on are you suddenly jumping back to 1938? Because of course in 1940 the RAF certainly did have Spitfires, and Hurricanes of course, and we know that the loss rates for the Luftwaffe in terms of aircraft and crews was far worse than that of the RAF in 1940. In 1938 the Luftwaffe themselves believed that a bombing campaign against Britain was impossible and if you are proposing an airborne landing in Britain in 1938, well even by your low standards that's idiotic.

 

[Tolls]

I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?

If you're jumping back to 1938 then no Spitfires is no problem as the Germans have no fighters, and pretty much no bombers, that can reach Britain.

 

[Border Reiver]

Henri, you have to understand one thing about paratroopers, though:

First of all they have no heavy equipment. No artillery, no Stugs, nada. That's not ideal in any case, but even less so if you want to do some city fighting.

Second, you lack supplies from that point on. Paratroopers are useful for a surprise drop and grab some undefended objective, but you have to move in some real army there FAST. Because paratroopers lack the "endurance" to hold anything for more than a day or two.

Third, at the time they tended to come down with just a pistol on them. Anything else, including rifles, came down in separate paradropped crates. So they'd then have to gather themselves, find the crates, and arm themselves.

And that's one reason why you don't want to paradrop in a city. You really don't want to be in the park with your pistol, your other equipment to be in a whole other park or on a house, and only God knows where your officer landed. You're very vulnerable in that time.

Fourth, you're even more vulnerable in the air while you glide down slowly, and your airplane before that is a weak transport airplane too. You REALLY don't want to paradrop over a place with massive numbers of FLAK batteries. Such as, you know, London.

So while I'm not surprised that the British generals thought of the possibility too -- it is their JOB to think up every scenario in advance -- I wouldn't take it for all that huge a threat.

Good analysis - it doesn't quite apply to Commonwealth and American paratroopers as they jumped with their rifles and LMGs, but in all other respects, its accurate.

Paratroopers are light troops meant to be inserted very close to their objective, take it and hold it until relieved by heavier forces. They don't have a lot of ammo, or other supplies as they need to carry everything on their backs. Fallschrimjager in London parks would be a propaganda win for Germany on Day 1 at best. On Day 2 they would be POWs and a propaganda victory for the Allies.

 

[Garrison]

Seriously though none of this has any bearing on Appeasement except insofar as Chamberlain's policies helped put Nazi Germany in control of the Channel Coast. The latest of dozens of Sealion threads on Alternatehistory.com clocked up 130 pages, most of which amounted to refuting the idiotic claims of an Henriesque Sealionista/Wehraboo. This thread is exhausting enough with dragging Sealion into it.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Henri, you have to understand one thing about paratroopers, though:

First of all they have no heavy equipment. No artillery, no Stugs, nada. That's not ideal in any case, but even less so if you want to do some city fighting.

And in 1938 they didn't have any sort of anti-armor capability. They didn't even have anti-tank rifles or grenades, let alone Panzerfäuste or Panzerschrecke. So even the lightly armored Mark VIs of the Royal Tank Corps could have flattened them.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?

Assuming you're talking about 1938 (even though the post to which you're responding expressly mentions 1940), I renew my earlier question, which you ignored as usual: What operational aircraft did the Luftwaffe have in 1938 that the Hurricane couldn't handle?

I also pose a related question based on a point someone made earlier: If, as you've claimed, the Gladiator was so useless in 1938, how is that Gladiators managed to score so many kills in 1940, including several He 111s?

 

[theprestige]

It's like arguing with an off-brand Harry Turtledove.

The Luftwaffe of 1940 defeats the RAF of 1938, enabling a successful Sealion in 1938. How the Luftwaffe of 1940 makes it to 1938 is left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps they were flying from the deck of the USS Nimitz.

ETA: There's a bit of waffle about this on the internet that I think makes a lot of sense:

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/wjnsd/the_final_countdown_stupid_or_awesome/

 

[jimbob]

It's like arguing with an off-brand Harry Turtledove. [1]
The Luftwaffe of 1940 defeats the RAF of 1938, enabling a successful Sealion in 1938. How the Luftwaffe of 1940 makes it to 1938 is left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps they were flying from the deck of the USS Nimitz.

ETA: There's a bit of waffle about this on the internet that I think makes a lot of sense:[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/wjnsd/the_final_countdown_stupid_or_awesome/

[1]You're right, but that's a horrible thought - Turtledove himself is pretty flakey, when alien space-lizards are the least implausible part of the story, I'm going to struggle to suspend disbelief.

[2]

 

[Elagabalus]

Ah yes, through the Ardennes, that classic route that all the sucessful invasions of the British Isles in the last 950 years have taken.

Dave

Yes, the Ardennes. Do you have any idea who won this year's La Flèche Wallonne?!! Well, do you?!!

 

[Andy_Ross]

ETA: There's a bit of waffle about this on the internet that I think makes a lot of sense:

 

[Pope130]

I just think that is complacency. What with no Spitfires?

It's true that in 1938 the RAF was without Spitfires. It's also true that the Bf-109 was without cannon or the Daimler-Benz engine. The Bf-109D had the Jumo 210 motor, four 7.9mm machine guns and shorter range than the E models used in the Battle of Britain. The Hurricane Mk-I of 1938 would have been able to deal with it.

 

[Henri McPhee]

There is an interesting website about all this. A Fighter Command of Gloster Gladiators in 1938 does not inspire confidence:

www.strangehistory.net/2015/06/13/could-germany-have-successfully-invaded-britain-1940/

One man, however, believed to the end of his days that it would have been possible: smiling Albert Kesselring, perhaps Germany’s most capable WW2 general. Kesselring in his postwar memoirs pooh-poohed the impossibility of an invasion. His requirements for the success of a hammer-blow invasion were as follows.
Diversionary bombing
Soften up fighter command in the chosen area.

Neutralise British infrastructure (radars, shore guns etc) with paratroopers and gliders
Bring all German naval power to bear on a narrow corridor in which the Home Fleet would not easily operate.

Kesselring was certainly right about one thing. The RAF did not have the power to destroy or even seriously damage an invasion fleet from the air. Everything would have depended on how quickly the Home Fleet would have rallied out and how well it could have interdicted German supply lines. Beach can see how a German army could have got a convincing foothold and how that German army could have defeated every British force at hand. But what he can’t see, pace Kesselring, is how the German army could have continually supplied that force. If fighter command had been defeated, perhaps a continual run of air supplies could have made a difference, but fighter command had not been defeated.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I also pose a related question based on a point someone made earlier: If, as you've claimed, the Gladiator was so useless in 1938, how is that Gladiators managed to score so many kills in 1940, including several He 111s?

There is a bit of information about all this at this website:

www.postcards-from-slough.co.uk/hom...airfield/hurricane-and-the-battle-of-britain/

A squadron of obsolete Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters was stationed in Devon but took no significant part in the battle. Two squadrons of Fleet Air Arm Sea Gladiators, Nos 804 NAS and 808 NAS, were assigned to fighter command but also to no particular effect.

 

[Major Major]

Write up your scenario for a successful invasion of Britain. Be ready to include plans to deal with the Royal Navy attacking your barges during the night. Post it on:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/forums/alternate-history-discussion-after-1900.16/

Be prepared to defend your work.

 

[Garrison]

Write up your scenario for a successful invasion of Britain. Be ready to include plans to deal with the Royal Navy attacking your barges during the night. Post it on:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/forums/alternate-history-discussion-after-1900.16/

Be prepared to defend your work.

Oh come on! We're still firefighting the current Sealion thread over there(131 pages and counting), do you really want to introduce Henri to Glenn239? Do you?

 

[Garrison]

There is a bit of information about all this at this website:

www.postcards-from-slough.co.uk/hom...airfield/hurricane-and-the-battle-of-britain/

They were in Devon, I guess we can add British geography to the list of things you don't know about.

There is an interesting website about all this. A Fighter Command of Gloster Gladiators in 1938 does not inspire confidence:

And again you conflate circumstances in 1940 with those in 1938. Germany cannot invade Britain in 1938, They don't have the troops, ships, bases or aircraft to carry one out and they lack the means to defeat France to gain access to the coast. It's notable that you keep ignoring the fact that the same Nazi Generals you are so keen on quoting were utterly against starting a war in 1938.

 

[Major Major]

Oh come on! We're still firefighting the current Sealion thread over there(131 pages and counting), do you really want to introduce Henri to Glenn239? Do you?

They would cancel out; arguing with each other so vehemently that the rest of us could sit back, break out the popcorn and soda, and watch the fight. It would be fun.