WTC7 - The fires failed Girder 44-79

I've seen video of towers where entire floors were engulfed in flames. They didn't fall.


That only proves that those buildings didn't fail. It doesn't say anything about how a completely different building should or should not have reacted.

I've seen video of many buildings brought down by explosives. They fell in exactly the same way that WTC 7 did.


Would that include the extremely loud, sequential, and rapid detonation of explosive charges?

Unfortunately, you're suggested a "single" explosive at a single location that would mimic a failure caused by unseating of a girder due to heat expansion. Your comparison of this scenario to standard, explosive demolitions is entirely invalid.

Furthermore, if the explosive destruction of this single support mimics a failure caused by unseating of the same support due to heat expansion to such a degree that no professionals can prove that heat expansion wasn't the culprit, then how could you possibly know that explosives were involved? Basically, what observations of WTC7's collapse are better explained by this explosive mimicry than by heat expansion itself?

I shouldn't get any disagreement that government and government officials lie.


They also tell the truth. What's your point?

Besides, the fact that some people in the employ of the government have lied about some things in the past is not itself evidence that entirely different people in the employ of the government are lying about entirely different things in the present.
 
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How can I disagree with no theory?

Except for WTC1 and WTC2, the remainder were pulled because they were highly damaged or, in the case or WTC7, pulled for other reasons. Either that or a relatively tiny fire in the corner of WTC 7 caused the central supports to fail in exactly the same way as a building falls when it's central beams have been cut by explosives.

Even government reports don't know the reason WTC 7 failed or they know and are not saying. That's what the cover-up is. The destruction of WTC 7 is the cover-up. The glibness of the reason for the failure of WTC 7 is the cover-up.

This is entirely incorrect, and betrays a near complete lack of knowledge of what you are talking about. NIST has a report on the 7 collapse, and it says, basically, "Unfought fires caused by impact damage from WTC 1's collapse".

And, of course, the theories for 1 and 2 are "plane impact and fire".

I like how, in your very next post, you reference the report that purported to explain 7's collapse. Oh, and the 9/11 Comission Report was out by 2004. NIST was A report, not The report.

The official report took about seven years to complete. A quote from Wikipedia follows:



This report is at least as plausible as the belief that someone pulled the building with explosives.
Based on your informed and experienced consideration of the subject matter, of course. I'm not sure how "The fires, fueled by office contents, along with the lack of water, were the key reasons for the collapse." is as plausible as ninjas secretly planting silent non-explosive explosives in three occupied and heavily trafficed buildings in the middle of Manhattan? I disagree.

However, buildings are supposed to be engineered to be five times as strong as needed to simply hold their own weight from collapsing. That's why this report seems a push.
Even if that's true - and I doubt you've ever seen a primary source saying so and are quoting other Truthers - that depends on the building being intact. Incidentally, the falling blocks hit the lower blocks with force equivalent to several times the weight of both towers combined.

Push or pull, what was it?
You are trying really hard to look witty here. And failing utterly, especially since you refuse to acknowledge all the things you've been corrected on.

I've seen video of towers where entire floors were engulfed in flames. They didn't fall.
Some people are shot and don't die. Some people are shot in the exact same body location and do. Clearly, the ones who died are all faking it.

I've seen video of many buildings brought down by explosives. They fell in exactly the same way that WTC 7 did.
You mean asymmetrically, with enough force to kill everyone nearby, with dozens of conspicuous flashes of light and miles of distinctive wiring that had to be cleared out of the rubble, with walls knocked down inside the structure, with an audio signature audible across New York?

I shouldn't get any disagreement that government and government officials lie.

So I remain skeptical.

Interesting fact; NIST also standaridzes weights and measures. So if you don't trust their report because the govt. lies, you can't trust your wristwatch.
 
Why don't you tell me?
Dodge.

These were as noisy as any. Tell me they weren't.
No. Prove your claims that the explosions at the WTC were consistent with those of explosives.

My argument is not that government lies more than sales people, but possibly as much.
That still leaves "wants attention".

So? I am merely an inquisitive skeptic.
JAQing off, got it.

If I knew all the answers, I wouldn't be asking questions.
And if you were interested in the answers, you'd actually listen to people who contradict your claims with evidence.

Yes, I know when I am ignorant, but at least I know that I know not. I don't pretend to know.
Yes you do. You're doing it right now. You're dodging questions and shifting the burden of proof in this very post.
 
One Meridian Plaza, destroyed by fire. You missed one.
Windsor building in Spain, destroyed by fire.
Both fires fought, buildings totaled by fire.
How did you miss the fact fires destroys the strength of steel, office fires.


fire destroys steel

One Meridian Plaza, fire fought, building totaled.
Guess what, WTC 1, 2, 7, fire NOT fought, buildings totaled by fire. Gone. Your logic if flawed, you think destroy is falling down, so you ignore fires which destroyed buildings - ignoring evidence, knowledge so you can spread lies, and be just like your fantasy, the evil government you fight by making up lies, spreading false information.


You just discovered G. Gravity. Welcome to physics 101. What is the primary energy in CD? On 911. You can't guess it?
E=mgh : where g is gravity. When did you graduate from college? Did you take physics? So far you have offered no evidence for your claims, which amount to baseless opinions.

Gravity collapses don't look like CD, CD looks like gravity collapses. Your logic is flawed, and you think you are a skeptic.



I was a government official, I never lied; albeit only a LtCol, your claim is wrong. You are spreading lies, why?



You mistake lack of knowledge as skepticism.

True, lack of knowledge isn't skepticism. We base our skepticism on what we know.

At least I know that I know not everything. You NEVER lied? You suggested that I was spreading lies. That's a lie because it is never a lie to describe what what you or I have seen or heard. If I haven't heard of a steel structured building that fell only because of fire, then that's the truth. If I said I know of no steel structured building that fell only because of fire, then that's what I know and that is the truth.

Congratulations on being promoted to a LtCol.

You gave some good pictures of buildings destroyed by fire, but were they all steel framed (I see some wood) and did they fall only because of fire?
 
Again...let me be clear

This is very simple and straight forward…if you cook a steel frame building long enough, it’s going to collapse. Architects and Structural Engineers who design and construct multi-story steel building for a living understand this. That’s why they place fireproofing on structural steel beams and columns, and install a sprinkler system throughout the building.

I know hundreds of structural engineers, and everyone one of them understands and accepts the findings of the NIST reports.

I there are structural engineers out there, who buy into the conspiracies of the Truthers, I do not know them, and have never met them.

Well, for the record, the theory that WTC buildings where bought down by controlled demolition is probably one the dumbest ideas in the history of mankind. The chance that any of the controlled demolition theories are true is Absolute Zero...IMHO
 
I've seen video of towers where entire floors were engulfed in flames. They didn't fall.
How were the constructed & with what materials?
Why don't you tell me?
That's a silly question. Redtail doesn't know what videos you've seen; furthermore it's your burden of proof to show that the situations are comparable.

Will you tell us now what the buildings in the videos you've seen were made of, and what structure did they have, so we can check how fair your comparison is? Just claiming you've seen other worse fires means nothing.


These were as noisy as any. Tell me they weren't.
They weren't.
 
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Again...let me be clear

This is very simple and straight forward…if you cook a steel frame building long enough, it’s going to collapse. Architects and Structural Engineers who design and construct multi-story steel building for a living understand this. That’s why they place fireproofing on structural steel beams and columns, and install a sprinkler system throughout the building.

I know hundreds of structural engineers, and everyone one of them understands and accepts the findings of the NIST reports.

I there are structural engineers out there, who buy into the conspiracies of the Truthers, I do not know them, and have never met them.

Well, for the record, the theory that WTC buildings where bought down by controlled demolition is probably one the dumbest ideas in the history of mankind. The chance that any of the controlled demolition theories are true is Absolute Zero...IMHO

You're so certain! You must be a god!

Show me another steel framed building that had a fire in a relatively small section that collapsed straight down.

Buildings brought down by explosives have the key girders cut first so that they fall inward. Cut the girders on the outside first and the building should topple to the side where the girders have been cut (or have softened due to fire).

Firemen fight fire with fire. Firemen also fight fire with explosives (oil well fires).

I might buy into the theory that WTC 7 was pulled in order to prevent the building from toppling into other buildings. This would be a conspiracy of silence more than anything. It would not be a huge conspiracy, but a conspiracy none the less. Governments have secrets.
 
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Hey Loneranger

You have 10 posts now.

Why not link us to what has persuaded you wtc7 was an controlled demolition.
 
I might buy into the theory that WTC 7 was pulled in order to prevent the building from toppling into other buildings.

This would only become clear on the day as events unfolded. Buildings this size take months to prepare for CD, and that prep occurs under the most favourable conditions. There is zero chance of WTC7 being prepped for CD on 9/11 itself.

And please stop using the word "pull" in this context. It's wrong.
 
That's a silly question. Redtail doesn't know what videos you've seen; furthermore it's your burden of proof to show that the situations are comparable.

Will you tell us now what the buildings in the videos you've seen were made of, and what structure did they have, so we can check how fair your comparison is? Just claiming you've seen other worse fires means nothing.



They weren't.

CD-tards should be forced to watch that video at least once an hour until they are cured.
 
I might buy into the theory that WTC 7 was pulled in order to prevent the building from toppling into other buildings.
Oh, do you have any proof of cables used to pull the building structure?

If not, you can not validly claim it was pulled as was e.g. building 6.

And have you missed my post #246 maybe? It seems you were writing and didn't read it

I've seen video of towers where entire floors were engulfed in flames. They didn't fall.
How were the constructed & with what materials?
Why don't you tell me?
That's a silly question. Redtail doesn't know what videos you've seen; furthermore it's your burden of proof to show that the situations are comparable.

Will you tell us now what the buildings in the videos you've seen were made of, and what structure did they have, so we can check how fair your comparison is? Just claiming you've seen other worse fires means nothing.


These were as noisy as any. Tell me they weren't.
They weren't.
 
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If this were a trial:

1) We have the motivation.
2) We have a confession.
3) The suspect(s) are on the scene.
4) We have some forensic fact.
5) We have video.

However, only one jurist votes for guilt and ten vote for innocent. The guilty walk free as all eleven jurists have to vote guilty.

The only question for me is whether or not pulling WTC 7 was a crime or a proper sacrifice made in the interest of public safety. This is the judge's call, not the jury who have only to determine reasonable doubt.

My belief is that half of the people in prison were convicted with less.
 
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Show me another steel framed building that had a fire in a relatively small section that collapsed straight down.

Neither tower "collapsed straight down," nor did WTC 7.

For that matter, if you think that controlled demolition on 9/11 is more plausible than the conensus explanations, show me another steel framed building that was secretly brought down by explosives (or whatever you think may have been used?) -- after some period of unfought fires, just so we're making a fair comparison. Also, show me a skyscraper about 1/4 mile tall that was struck by well-fueled jumbo jets going at kamikaze speeds, yet never collapsed.

I don't think the arguments from precedent make much sense.
 
2) We have a confession.

No you don't. You have someone who decided to pull any firefighting effort from the building, but hilariously you stubbornly refuse to let go of the obsession that he meant to somehow pull the building down instead.
 
If this were a trial:
That would be the shortest trial ever

1) We have the motivation.
Which is? I haven't heard any other claim than the one that would have been the most stupid insurance-scam ever.
2) We have a confession.
No
3) The suspect(s) are on the scene.
Who? The firefighters??
4) We have some forensic fact.
No fact that supports demolition
5) We have video.
Showing what, exactly? Not a controlled demolition.

And stop using "pull" as a term for CD.
 
Neither tower "collapsed straight down," nor did WTC 7.

For that matter, if you think that controlled demolition on 9/11 is more plausible than the conensus explanations, show me another steel framed building that was secretly brought down by explosives (or whatever you think may have been used?) -- after some period of unfought fires, just so we're making a fair comparison. Also, show me a skyscraper about 1/4 mile tall that was struck by well-fueled jumbo jets going at kamikaze speeds, yet never collapsed.

I don't think the arguments from precedent make much sense.

WTC 1 and WTC 2 had over half their supporting girders cut on two sides of the building. The girders were taken out asymmetrically too! The remainder had much of their fireproofing removed by the impact. The fire softened the remaining girders. I believe the reason that WTC 1 and WTC 2 fell is obvious.

I also believed that WTC 7 was obviously pulled with sufficient reason for a conviction - if all eleven twelve jurists agreed.
 
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