WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

[Belz...]

If you want to know why it sounds so confusing...it's because NIST is using all kinds of Doublespeak.

Or simply you not understanding them properly.

If they are not burning...how are they glowing?

Heat.

NIST describes them as partially burned. You do understand, that burned means...they're not burning anymore, right?

Actually, if something is STILL burning then it is, by definition, partially burnt.

Why would NIST say this material has no visual indication of burning and then proceed to say that it is a burning material?

On the face of it, I'd say that because appearances can be deceiving. I assume, however, that that was not the essence of what they said.

The molten aluminum plus partially burned debris is the flowing material. They say the flowing material has no visual indication that it's burning...and then they say it is glowing orange (visual indication) like logs burning in a fireplace.

Yes. You are yet to understand that GLOWING does not mean BURNING.

 

[babazaroni]

You people should be politicians. You said the color of the molten material in the video I presented, may not be accurate. NIST agrees in their FAQ that this flowing material is yellow-orange.

Now, do you think it's the video camera that is changing the color of this molten material? If not, than what could be changing the color of this molten material?

And yet you claim to be able to judge the color of the flow.

 

[28th Kingdom]

where are the flashes and showers of sparks?

I'm glad you asked...there they are:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

 

[babazaroni]

You people should be politicians. You said the color of the molten material in the video I presented, may not be accurate. NIST agrees in their FAQ that this flowing material is yellow-orange.

Now, do you think it's the video camera that is changing the color of this molten material? If not, than what could be changing the color of this molten material?

And yet you claim to be able to judge the color of the flow.

 

[Horatius]

It's correct within an order of magnitude. Real science!

But that would be giving him credit for knowing what "order of magnitude" means, and I'm not willing to do that.

PS. Did you study physics? We physics geeks are the only ones I know of who use "order of magnitude" in casual conversations.

 

[Mercutio]

You people should be politicians. You said the color of the molten material in the video I presented, may not be accurate. NIST agrees in their FAQ that this flowing material is yellow-orange.

Now, do you think it's the video camera that is changing the color of this molten material? If not, than what could be changing the color of this molten material?

The point is that two different lights, which look identical to the eye, may be composed of very different spectra. These spectra are the physical signature of the glowing material. A spectrometer would allow the specific wavelengths of the light to be measured, but I doubt (perhaps someone knows better than I do on this) that an inexpensive video camera would preserve sufficient data to do this. (Take a look at the "flame test" on any chemistry site to see an example of what I am talking about; my favorite is the test using cobalt glass to filter out the wavelength produced by burning sodium.)

Wikipedia is not a scientific source. You all even said, anyone can edit that site...so there's absolutely nothing conclusive about the info on it. Please, provide another source, and give the exact temperature at which thermite and/or thermate ignites. I provided video of a fuse igniting therma/ite...so at the least, a detonator could be rigged to a piece of magnesium to ignite the therma/ite device I described.

Ah...do you agree, then, that the presence of such detonators in the rubble would be potent evidence for your claim, and against ours? Have you seen any such evidence? How about the pics of the "thermite-melted columns" you posted before? Any sign of detonators near them?

 

[Belz...]

That's an easy question. Um, what bout the HUGE airliner that crashed into the building doing 500mph? You all like to forget this fact when it becomes inconvenient, right? Maybe this plane busted open some therma/ite containers...which scattered the therma/ite powder across the building.

That's a very ugly pile of maybe's your making, there.

The corner we see the therma/ite pouring from in this video:

You can identify thermite like that ? That's almost as impressive as christophera's ability to spot invisible concrete from 2 miles away on a 200x300 pixels picture.

Also, look at how this molten material is giving off sparks like a therma/ite reaction.

And just like a foundry, where metal is melted.

Why? Because, science tells us that certain materials can only burn so hot. Jet fuel, can only burn up to about 1000C, and organic material such as computers, furniture, carpet etc...burn even cooler than that. You would need temperatures in excess of 1000C to make a molten metal spark and react like that. This is another way, I claim I scientifically proved this had to be therma/ite or a therma/ite like substance.

If science worked like that, we'd be having this conversation by employing mounted messagers.

Look at this video of a thermite reaction:

Compare it to the molten material flowing from WTC 2:

That's all nice and dandy. However, the first video is not the only thing that could look like the second.

 

[babazaroni]

I'm glad you asked...there they are:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

BTW, this video also shows sagging columns.

 

[Horatius]

Not only that, it appears to burn kinda slowly. If thermite/thermate/termites were used to cut the exterior supports, where are the flashes and showers of sparks?

They hid them behind the inviscrete(tm), silly!

 

[Belz...]

No, to scientifically prove something you have to do more than use big words and claim it is true.

OMG...I'm so glad you said that. THAT'S exactly what NIST has done...

So it's alright for you to do it, too ?

 

[Mercutio]

I'm glad you asked...there they are:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

These "sparks" are all flowing down, with gravity. None are arcing up like the ones in your car example. This is quite obviously a very different sort of reaction.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Wikipedia is not a scientific source. You all even said, anyone can edit that site...so there's absolutely nothing conclusive about the info on it. Please, provide another source, and give the exact temperature at which thermite and/or thermate ignites. I provided video of a fuse igniting therma/ite...so at the least, a detonator could be rigged to a piece of magnesium to ignite the therma/ite device I described.

Does it bother you that you hold such high standards for others, and such low standards for yourself? It sure bothers me.

 

[HeyLeroy]

#1 What's a conventional Thermite Reaction?

"Conventional thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These cannot be reached with conventional black-powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. It is possible to start the reaction using a propane torch if done right, but this should never be attempted for safety reasons. The torch can preheat the entire pile of thermite which will make it explode instead of burning slowly when it finally reaches ignition temperature."

I just showed you a video, of a thermite reaction being set off with a fuse...this thermite reaction burned through the hood of the car, and burned white hot at its core...listen to the narrator say white hot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

Proof that it's thermite/thermate/termites?

Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens.

Add videography to the list of things you don't understand.

http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp028.htm

As we've noted, under normal conditions approximate color consistency comes into play and automatically makes a perceptual adjustment for sources of light that we assume are white.

Strangely, when we look at video or film, approximate color consistency doesn't work in the same way. Unless color corrections are made, we'll notice significant (and annoying) color shifts between scenes when they are cut together.

 

[babazaroni]

LeRoy, your avatar must be holding a thermite torch, cause its glowing orange

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Wikipedia is not a scientific source. You all even said, anyone can edit that site...so there's absolutely nothing conclusive about the info on it. Please, provide another source, and give the exact temperature at which thermite and/or thermate ignites. I provided video of a fuse igniting therma/ite...so at the least, a detonator could be rigged to a piece of magnesium to ignite the therma/ite device I described.

you stated thermate can ignite in a typical fire, AFAIK no one here has claimed that it cant (we have disputed thermite, but not thermate, but either way, you claimed it could be ignited but a normal fire, its your claim to support) we simply ask that you support your own claim

you said the thermate could reach the edge of the building if the plane damaged the cutter device (which itself is still simply a wishful hypothesis anyway) and was ignited there, this requires either
A: thermate can be ignited by a typical fire, if so, please support this claim of yours
B: the ignition device somehow remained in contact with the thermate while it was knocked across the building and still managed to function properly and ignite the thermate

 

[Horatius]

BTW, this video also shows sagging columns.

Another thing to notice, when you're discussing the reliability of handheld video cameras, is to take a look at the tail rotor on the helicopter. The combination of the camera image sensor and the rotation of the rotor, makes it look like it's spinning really slowly.

You can't just take such a video at face value. Not that I expect 28th to admit to such.

 

[HeyLeroy]

I'm glad you asked...there they are:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

Yeah, I've seen that, and you know what? I know the consensus among people with edjikayshun and stuff says it's aluminium, and the tin-foil hat set is screaming "THERMITE! LOOKA THA THERMITE!", but to me it looks like melting plastic:

They hid them behind the inviscrete(tm), silly!

(ETA)

LeRoy, your avatar must be holding a thermite torch, cause its glowing orange

That's why murderkitty's screamin'!

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

How much mass would be required to produce molten iron from thermite equal to the same volume of molten aluminum droplets shown flowing from the south tower window:


A mole of Fe weighs 54 g. For every mole of Fe produced by thermite, one mole of Al and 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 is needed.

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe


One mole of Al weighs 27 g. 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 80 g.

Therefore, (27 + 80) g = 107 g of Al and Fe2O3 is needed to produce 54 g of Fe.

That means the mass of the reactants to that of Fe produced is a ratio of 107/54 = 2. The mass of thermite reactants (Al, Fe2O3) is twice that of the molten iron produced.

Comparing the weight of molten aluminum droplets compared with iron:

Iron is 7.9 g/cc. Aluminum is 2.64 g/cc. Fe is denser than Al by a factor of 3. For the same volume of droplets, Fe would have three times the mass as Al.

To produce the iron from thermite requires a reactant mass that is a factor of 2 more than the iron produced. Also, Fe is 3 times as dense as Al. So, it would take 2*3 = 6 times as much mass to produce the same volume of molten iron droplets from thermite compared with molten aluminum droplets.


Example:

Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass.
Suppose 10 tons of molten aluminum fell from the south tower, about 1/8th of that available from the airplane. If it had been molten iron produced from thermite, 60 tons of thermite reactants would have to have been stored in Fuji Bank to produce the same volume spilling out of the south tower. The section of floor would have to hold all of that plus the aircraft. *Amount of aluminum can be ascertained by counting the droplets and measuring their size compared to the known size of the window. It's not easy to get a good number on this. It's based on the number of slugs seen in video stills, their size relative to the window width which was about 22 inches, and the density of aluminum, assuming this was aluminum.

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm

The weight of a gallon of aluminum is about 22.5 pounds. A hundred of these would already be 2250 lbs. A gallon size is not unlike the size of the slugs that were pouring out the window. Look at them relative to the window size. They look small at first, but when you realize how big the towers were, the slugs were fairly large. It must have been in the thousands of pounds.

Some of the video stills show what look like 50 to 100 slugs in just one frame.
http://www.debunking911.com/capture7.jpg

The thermite wouldn't have only needed to make a clean cut like the photo above, it would have also needed to cut sideways. Not an easy feat for thermite. You see, it's a powder which burns chaotically. Maybe with some device but no working device has been proven to me to work to cut a vertical column. You can direct it with a canister but that method wouldn't work to cut a column. The canister only makes a small hole. Nano-thermite has been talked about but its uses fall far short of cutting these massive columns. It's in its research stage. They include possible uses for welding molecular devices and possible use as a heat signature flare decoy. Then there is a patent of a device which has been brought up but as of yet, there is no evidence the idea went any further. Does it even work? Even if did, they are "Ganged" together to make the cut. You would still need these boxes all over the columns. Once again the answer to this from the "scholars" is "rationalized technology". They need this technology to exist so it exists. There is some secret super thermite which can be placed in a canister which can survive 1,100 degree C so the primary charge doesn't go off. "Gee debunking, you're so dumb."
Much of Jones and the "scholars" evidence is made up of photographs or videos accompanied by suggestions on what they mean. Below is a passage from Jones' document.

An intriguing photograph (below right) taken by Rob Miller, photojournalist with the New York Post, provides additional photographic evidence (Swanson, 2003) for the use of thermite or a sulfur-containing derivative such as thermate. We see debris and dust as WTC 1 collapses, with WTC 7 seen in the foreground, across the street from WTC 1. The photograph on the left shows, for comparison, the thermite reaction with a grayish-white aluminum-oxide dust plume extending from white-hot molten iron "blob" from the reaction. (Experiment at BYU by the author in which thermite-plus-sulfur cut through a steel cup in a fraction of a second. Any thermite reaction is a dangerous reaction and should only be performed by a trained professional capable of assessing the hazards and risks.)

To be fair I don't know if Gallagher uses a real Nano-thermite coated Sledge-O-Matic.
Alex Jones, professional conspiracy theorist radio host, has said Jones found evidence of thermite. This isn't true. What Jones found was something which would have been in the debris pile anyway. Sulfur...
WTC Thermite
Sulfur
In Steven Jones' PDF "Answers to Objections and Questions", to support his claim for Sol-gels/Thermite he states:

"One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done,"
​

However when you look at the link he uses
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsair0911,0,471193.story?coll=ny-homepage-right-area
You find out Mr. Jones edits out the VERY next line which states

"He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers."
​

Apparently, Jones felt this was not important enough for his readers to know.
Sloppy research or purposeful deception by the "scholars"? The evidence for one is growing...
Thanks to Shagster, ScottS and David B. Benson for their research.​

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
​

 

[aggle-rithm]

28K,

Which do you find more likely:

1. That it is possible for molten aluminum to glow orange by some mechanism you don't understand, or

2. That unknown agents of the US government secretly planted an enormous amount of thermite throughout the twin towers, without anyone noticing, using (in direct violation of normal demolition practices AND common sense) unknown technology that can allow it to cut through vertical columns and that would allow the combustible material as well as the devices to survive a high-energy impact and raging fire, all to kill hundreds of public servants who were attempting to save civilians from the buildings, so that they could turn the US into a police state (something they still have not done, five years out)?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You people should be politicians. You said the color of the molten material in the video I presented, may not be accurate. NIST agrees in their FAQ that this flowing material is yellow-orange.

Now, do you think it's the video camera that is changing the color of this molten material? If not, than what could be changing the color of this molten material?

I'm questioning the quality of the Brainiac video.

Wikipedia is not a scientific source. You all even said, anyone can edit that site...so there's absolutely nothing conclusive about the info on it. Please, provide another source, and give the exact temperature at which thermite and/or thermate ignites. I provided video of a fuse igniting therma/ite...so at the least, a detonator could be rigged to a piece of magnesium to ignite the therma/ite device I described.

I provided a link with ignition info on thermite. If you have different information then provide it and the source.

You are relying on thermate having lower ignition temp than thermite, you provide the data for how much lower it is.