WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

[defaultdotxbe]

Therma/ite let's off a chemical reaction, that generates its own heat and its own molten metal. It is a powder-like substance that can be ignited with the temp from a standard fire.

wrong, the ignition temp of thermite is much higher than a standard fire, its even higher than an acetelyne torch

you have several things to explain RE thermite

1: how could the vertical columns be cut by thermite, you propose a concept, but failed to provide any proof for that concept after flaws were pointed out

2: how thermite could have gotten to the perimeter columns and ignited there is it was supposed to be cutting the core columns

3: why you continually refer to a NIST FAQ to support your claims, whiel simultaneously proclaiming anything from NIST be to doublethink and thus falsified

 

[28th Kingdom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite#Ignition

"Thermate is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally thermite 68.7%, barium nitrate 29.0%, sulphur 2.0% and binder 0.3%. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermate

 

[Horatius]

3: why you continually refer to a NIST FAQ to support your claims, whiel simultaneously proclaiming anything from NIST be to doublethink and thus falsified

That would be that doublethink thing, wouldn't it? And using doublethink while condemning doublethink must be triplethink. Anyone want to make a case for quadthink?

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Also, look at how this molten material is giving off sparks like a therma/ite reaction. Those sparks and reactions are caused from heat that exceeds temperatures that could have been present on those impact floors. Why? Because, science tells us that certain materials can only burn so hot. Jet fuel, can only burn up to about 1000C, and organic material such as computers, furniture, carpet etc...burn even cooler than that. You would need temperatures in excess of 1000C to make a molten metal spark and react like that. This is another way, I claim I scientifically proved this had to be therma/ite or a therma/ite like substance.

Can the temperature in a room where there's a fire exceed the ignition temperature of whatever is burning?

 

[aggle-rithm]

Therma/ite let's off a chemical reaction, that generates its own heat and its own molten metal. It is a powder-like substance that can be ignited with the temp from a standard fire. Once, ignited a chemical reaction is set off, that produces extreme heat...which in turn creates molten metal.

So why didn't the towers collapse immediately when the crash occured and the fires started?

 

[Horatius]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2289367460324643450&q=grenade

Trying to open a safe with thermite. Not too successful. So how much more would you need to cut a column?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

"Thermate is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally thermite 68.7%, barium nitrate 29.0%, sulphur 2.0% and binder 0.3%. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermate

so its lower

how much lower? low enough to ignite in a normal fire? can you provide a less vague source?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

"Thermate is a mixture of thermite and pyrotechnic additives which have been found to be superior to standard thermite for incendiary purposes. Its composition by weight is generally thermite 68.7%, barium nitrate 29.0%, sulphur 2.0% and binder 0.3%. Addition of barium nitrate to thermite increases its thermal effect, creates flame in burning and significantly reduces the ignition temperature."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermate

1) "significantly reduces the ignition temperature" To what? What is the lower ignition temperature? You claimed, "Therma/ite let's off a chemical reaction, that generates its own heat and its own molten metal. It is a powder-like substance that can be ignited with the temp from a standard fire." (which you have refined to be thermate by default due to ignition temp); so what is the ignition temp of thermate?
2) Where is the residue from the barium nitrate component of the thermate? This would be a signature of the use of it.

 

[28th Kingdom]

#1 What's a conventional Thermite Reaction?

"Conventional thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These cannot be reached with conventional black-powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. It is possible to start the reaction using a propane torch if done right, but this should never be attempted for safety reasons. The torch can preheat the entire pile of thermite which will make it explode instead of burning slowly when it finally reaches ignition temperature."

I just showed you a video, of a thermite reaction being set off with a fuse...this thermite reaction burned through the hood of the car, and burned white hot at its core...listen to the narrator say white hot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

#1 What's a conventional Thermite Reaction?

"Conventional thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These cannot be reached with conventional black-powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. It is possible to start the reaction using a propane torch if done right, but this should never be attempted for safety reasons. The torch can preheat the entire pile of thermite which will make it explode instead of burning slowly when it finally reaches ignition temperature."

I just showed you a video, of a thermite reaction being set off with a fuse...this thermite reaction burned through the hood of the car, and burned white hot at its core...listen to the narrator say white hot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

1) What kind of fuse? Odds are it was a magnesium fuse, not a black-powder fuse. Magnesium burns at ~2,500 F.

ETA: Just more equivocation on your part.

 

[28th Kingdom]

"Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens."

No cherry picking, please. Address your claims, please.

Why can you use vague terms like, Conventional Thermite Reaction, plucked from Wikipedia...but when I do the same thing only to refute your vague claims...I am somehow in the wrong, and you are declared, right?

And, what scientific data are you using to calculate the odds that the fuse is magnesium in the video I linked to?

Thanks.

 

[Horatius]

Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens.

Yes, becasue we all know that consumer-grade handheld video cameras always recreate colour absolutley perfectly. That's why astronomers use them, instead of spectrometers, right?

Oh, wait.....

 

[defaultdotxbe]

#1 What's a conventional Thermite Reaction?

"Conventional thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These cannot be reached with conventional black-powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. It is possible to start the reaction using a propane torch if done right, but this should never be attempted for safety reasons. The torch can preheat the entire pile of thermite which will make it explode instead of burning slowly when it finally reaches ignition temperature."

I just showed you a video, of a thermite reaction being set off with a fuse...this thermite reaction burned through the hood of the car, and burned white hot at its core...listen to the narrator say white hot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens.

conventional thermite is just that, thermite (iron oxide and aluminum) no additives

the fuse in the video has a magnesium strip in it (magnesium burns hot enough to ignite thermite) presumably any magnesium ignition device would be separated from the thermite in your hypothetical thermite cutter, so there would be no means to ignite the thermite after the device is damaged, so we default back to thermate, which may or may not be able to be ignited by a standard fire

#2 what is the ignition temperature of thermate?

 

[beachnut]

#1 What's a conventional Thermite Reaction?

"Conventional thermite reactions require very high temperatures for initiation. These cannot be reached with conventional black-powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, or other common igniting substances. Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it will not ignite as it must be at or near white-hot to initiate the reaction. It is possible to start the reaction using a propane torch if done right, but this should never be attempted for safety reasons. The torch can preheat the entire pile of thermite which will make it explode instead of burning slowly when it finally reaches ignition temperature."

I just showed you a video, of a thermite reaction being set off with a fuse...this thermite reaction burned through the hood of the car, and burned white hot at its core...listen to the narrator say white hot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens.

Now all you need to do is lay down the WTC tower so gravity can let the thermite/mate burn through the steel columns.

Just a small problem! Notice the thermite burned though in the z-axis, with gravity, not sideways. It goes down.

Just a few million engineers short of having a good theory.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

"Also, you are claiming the color of this molten material could be inaccurate. What is causing it to be inaccurate? The camera which video taped it? The only thing that should affect the color would be the color/contrast settings on our individual computer screens."

No cherry picking, please. Address your claims, please.

No shifting the burden. You used both videos for comparison. You provide evidence that they are equivalent and that you have knowledge to state conclusively that they are the same.

Why can you use vague terms like, Conventional Thermite Reaction, plucked from Wikipedia...but when I do the same thing only to refute your vague claims...I am somehow in the wrong, and you are declared, right?

I provided as source that discusses ignition of thermite. If you have a source that disagrees with it, then present it.

And, what scientific data are you using to calculate the odds that the fuse is magnesium in the video I linked to?
Thanks.

Often, strips of magnesium metal are used as fuses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite#Ignition

Because of the high temperature necessary to ignite the thermite, a magnesium strip is needed. Use a blowtorch, butane torch, or similar to ignite the magnesium strip, which will in turn ignite the thermite in a ladder-up reaction. Place the strip alongside the thermite. A potentially safer method if materials are available is to place powdered potassium manganate (VII) ('potassium permanganate') in a small crater in the thermite and pour glycerol on top. The third method is to insert a common sparkler into the thermite and just ignite the sparkler. The sparkler burns at a high enough temperature to start the reaction.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chemical_synthesis/Thermite"

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chemical_synthesis/Thermite

Magnesium ribbon, although unreliable, is still the most popular way to ignite thermite.

http://www.instructables.com/id/EUI98C3Y4WEV2ZGBDD/

Ignition with Magnesium Ribbon is sometimes successful, but this method is notoriously unreliable.

http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm

Plus, given that the show in the video is Brainiac I can pretty much guarentee they will go with a cost-effective (read cheap) method for obtaining the results for which they are looking.

 

[Horatius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCD_camera#Color_cameras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_color

It should be noted that additive color is a result of the way the eye detects color, and is not a property of light. There is a vast difference between Yellow light, with a wavelength of approximately 580nm, and a mixture of red and green light. However, both stimulate our eyes in a similar manner, so we do not detect the difference.

 

[aggle-rithm]

It just occured to me: The substance flowing from the tower could be the liquid-metal Terminator, trying to escape!

Sure, T2 is only a movie, but that's apparently where 28K gets most of his insights from.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

From the link he cited: °C = K − 273.15

It's correct within an order of magnitude. Real science!

 

[28th Kingdom]

No shifting the burden. You used both videos for comparison. You provide evidence that they are equivalent and that you have knowledge to state conclusively that they are the same.

You people should be politicians. You said the color of the molten material in the video I presented, may not be accurate. NIST agrees in their FAQ that this flowing material is yellow-orange.

Now, do you think it's the video camera that is changing the color of this molten material? If not, than what could be changing the color of this molten material?

I provided as source that discusses ignition of thermite. If you have a source that disagrees with it, then present it.

Wikipedia is not a scientific source. You all even said, anyone can edit that site...so there's absolutely nothing conclusive about the info on it. Please, provide another source, and give the exact temperature at which thermite and/or thermate ignites. I provided video of a fuse igniting therma/ite...so at the least, a detonator could be rigged to a piece of magnesium to ignite the therma/ite device I described.

 

[HeyLeroy]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2289367460324643450&q=grenade

Trying to open a safe with thermite. Not too successful. So how much more would you need to cut a column?

Not only that, it appears to burn kinda slowly. If thermite/thermate/termites were used to cut the exterior supports, where are the flashes and showers of sparks?