WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

[28th Kingdom]

A torch would have to be held away from the steel. This makes concealment difficult.

Why would it have to be held away from the steel? This clamp device...would be fastened onto the face of the steel columns.

 

[babazaroni]

Okay, Arkan, let's continue to discuss therma/ite. We've seen the video of yellow-orange molten material pouring from WTC 2. NIST even addresses this. They say it's silvery molten aluminum mixed with burned organic material like computers, carpet, furniture. Is this what you believe?

Wrong 28K. The NIST FAQ report says partially burned organic materials. That means the other part is still burning.

partially burned

partially burned

partially burned

partially burned

partially burned

 

[Gravy]

What does NIST have but conjecture? They couldn't even reproduce any truss failures or floor collapses in their experiments...so they decided to use computer simulated exercises, that could give them any answer they wanted.

Yoo Hoo! In the buildings the trusses DIDN'T fail. The floors DIDN'T collapse. If you had bothered to read ANY of NIST's conclusions, you'd know that.

What a waste of time you are. You've been told over and over how to answer your questions, but you just aren't interested. Pathetic.

 

[Horatius]

This clamp device can then be secured to the vertical steel column, with the slit/nozzle pressed air tight against the face of the steel column on all four sides.

This pretty much proves he hasn't taken a very good look at any of the patents on thermite cutting devices.

Pretty much all of the ones I've read make a point that there has to be a stand-off distance between the nozzle and the target. I expect his design would act more like a rocket than a torch. The pressure has to go somewhere, right?

Really, it's not that hard to find these things.

http://www.google.com/patents

Search on "thermite". There's only 630 hits just on the one word. You could parse that set in a lot less time than he's spent not answering questions on this issue. "thermite and cutting" reduces the set to 91 hits.

Lazy bugger!

 

[28th Kingdom]

"Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning. " NIST FAQ

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I've been doing you a favor by not addressing this Baba. Why would NIST say that this flowing material, that has no visual indication of burning...is made up of burning materials? They're not making a distinction between the molten metal and burned debris. They say, the flowing material (as a whole the material would be the molten aluminum and debris combined) has no visual signs of burning.

Well, what about the orange glow NIST refers to? How can something that has no visual indication of burning, glow like something that is burning in a fireplace? Or how can a non-burning flowing material be made of up burning materials?

 

[Gravy]

Okay, Arkan, let's continue to discuss therma/ite. We've seen the video of yellow-orange molten material pouring from WTC 2. NIST even addresses this. They say it's silvery molten aluminum mixed with burned organic material like computers, carpet, furniture. Is this what you believe?

Because, we all know the fires on the impact floors weren't hot enough to melt the steel from the towers, so without therma/ite or a similar substance, you can't get glowing yellow-orange molten metal/steel. So what is your take on this? Is it more likely that silvery molten aluminum mixed with black burned materials creates a glowing yellow-orange molten material....than to believe that a simple therma/ite reaction was set off by the fires on the impact floors? Really, who is grasping at straws here? Some of you even said it might be a naturally occurring therma/ite reaction. HAHAHAHAHAHA OMG!

So after almost an hour in a corner of the building in which fire had been RAGING since the second the plane hit, a thermite reaction starts? Explain.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Okay, Arkan, let's continue to discuss therma/ite. We've seen the video of yellow-orange molten material pouring from WTC 2.

We've seen the video which has material in it that appears molten, but which we are unable to confirm, and has, on the video a yellow-orange appearance.

NIST even addresses this. They say it's silvery molten aluminum mixed with burned organic material like computers, carpet, furniture. Is this what you believe?

NIST says

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?
NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.
Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.
NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.
Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

Given available information, I do not have any reason to disagree with their assessment.

Because, we all know the fires on the impact floors weren't hot enough to melt the steel from the towers, so without therma/ite or a similar substance, you can't get glowing yellow-orange molten metal/steel.

Steel is a metal. Not all metal is steel.

Melting Point and Weights of Various Metals and Alloys

MetalSymbolMelting Point ºFMelting Point ºCSpecific GravityWeight in Troy Ozs/Cu InAluminumAl12206602.701.423AntimonySb11676306.623.448BerylliumBe234012801.820.959BismuthBi5202719.805.163CadmiumCd6103218.654.557CarbonC--2.221.170ChromiumCr343018907.193.788CobaltCo272314958.908.900CopperCu198110838.964.719Gold, 24K PureAu1945106319.3210.180IridiumIr4449245422.5011.849IronFe280215397.874.145LeadPb62132711.345.973MagnesiumMg12026501.750.917ManganeseMn227312457.433.914MolybdenumMo4760262510.205.347NickelNi265114558.904.691OsmiumOs4892270022.5011.854PalladiumPd2831155512.006.322PhosphorusP111441.820.959Platinum, PurePt3224177321.4511.30115% Irid Plat-3310182121.5911.30110% Irid Plat-3250178821.5411.3495% Irid Plat-3235177921.5011.325RhodiumRh3571196612.446.553RutheniumRu4500250012.206.428SiliconSi260514302.331.247Silver, PureAg176196110.495.525Silver, Sterling-164089310.365.457Silver, Coin-161587910.315.430TinSn4502327.303.846ZincZn7874197.103.7758

http://www.kitco.com/jewelry/meltingpoints.html

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Melting Points of Various Metals [/FONT] [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Melting Points [/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Metal[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Fahrenheit (f)[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Celsius (c)[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Aluminum[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1218[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]659[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Brass[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1700[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]927[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Bronze[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1675[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]913[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Cast Iron[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]2200[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1204[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Copper[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1981[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1083[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Gold[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1945[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1063[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Lead[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]327[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]163[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Magnesium[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1204[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]651[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Nickel[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]2646[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1452[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Silver[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1761[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]951[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Steel[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]2500[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1371[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Tungsten[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]6150[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]3399[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Wrought Iron[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]2700[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]1482[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Zinc[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]787[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]419[/FONT]

http://www.onlinemetals.com/meltpt.cfm
Please note the wide range of temperatures at which various metals will melt.

So what is your take on this? Is it more likely that silvery molten aluminum mixed with black burned materials creates a glowing yellow-orange molten material....than to believe that a simple therma/ite reaction was set off by the fires on the impact floors? Really, who is grasping at straws here? Some of you even said it might be a naturally occurring therma/ite reaction. HAHAHAHAHAHA OMG!

If we assume, for the sake of discussion, that the coloration in the video is accurate to what was observed in person and that all of the luminescence of the flow was from heat radiating off of it we can look at the following to get an idea of the temperature:
http://www.techmind.org/colour/coltemp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

(aside: I'm sure our resident engineers will correct any mistakes in what follows)

Looking at those links we can give a range of temps for the flow at being somewhere between 1700K and 4000K. Converting to C we get a range of 1426C to 3726C.

So, what are the possibilities:

• Color in the video is inaccurate
• Color is accurate, but there is burning material
• Color is accurate, there is no burning material, and the color is coming only from the glow of the material(s) in the flow

So, 28th, what do you think we can do to further analyze these possibilities?

 

[babazaroni]

This pretty much proves he hasn't taken a very good look at any of the patents on thermite cutting devices.

Pretty much all of the ones I've read make a point that there has to be a stand-off distance between the nozzle and the target. I expect his design would act more like a rocket than a torch. The pressure has to go somewhere, right?

Yes, if you are talking about a torch, then there has to be a stand-off distance.

28k was talking about a torch, but instead of a small cutting point, it would have to be a slit the width of the steel.

Now if you are talking about a device that can hold thermite against steel, then this device is going to be inefficient and require considerably more thermite.

 

[Gravy]

There's also the possibility that glass was mixed in. Window glass melts at about the same temperature as aluminum. It glows orange.

 

[DavidJames]

"Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning. " NIST FAQ

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I've been doing you a favor by not addressing this Baba. Why would NIST say that this flowing material, that has no visual indication of burning...is made up of burning materials? They're not making a distinction between the molten metal and burned debris. They say, the flowing material (as a whole the material would be the molten aluminum and debris combined) has no visual signs of burning.

Well, what about the orange glow NIST refers to? How can something that has no visual indication of burning, glow like something that is burning in a fireplace? Or how can a non-burning flowing material be made of up burning materials?

I know you don't want to hear this, but the fact is you aren't smart enough to understand what NIST says. Why don't you find someone with the educational background and practical experience who can understand NIST to tutor you, then come back. Or you could invite that person to help you here.

 

[stateofgrace]

Why would it have to be held away from the steel? This clamp device...would be fastened onto the face of the steel columns.

I don’t care that I am on his ignore list. He is talking rubbish, pure and simple.

There is no way c-clamps or g-clamps could be used to do this.

They are metal and would simply burn off.

There is absolutely no way you could line up four clamps like this, two would have to be offset against the other two. They would not line up. They would not make the continual cut around the beam. The cuts would be offset. He is talking dross.

He is no engineer and has absolutely no idea about these types of engineering tools.Period.

 

[babazaroni]

I've been doing you a favor by not addressing this Baba. Why would NIST say that this flowing material, that has no visual indication of burning...is made up of burning materials? They're not making a distinction between the molten metal and burned debris. They say, the flowing material (as a whole the material would be the molten aluminum and debris combined) has no visual signs of burning.

Well, what about the orange glow NIST refers to? How can something that has no visual indication of burning, glow like something that is burning in a fireplace? Or how can a non-burning flowing material be made of up burning materials?

Please, don't do me any favors.

The material is only partially burned.

Would you say glowing embers in a fireplace are partially burned?

Would you say glowing embers in a fireplace are burning?

If they are not burning or burned, then there must be some other state between burning and burned, or they would not be glowing.

So I have to repeat, the NIST faq says:

partially burned

 

[28th Kingdom]

"Color is accurate, there is no burning material, and the color is coming only from the glow of the material(s) in the flow"

Firstly, you can tell me how burned (as in burnt...as in black and not orange from burning) organic material glows orange. Are these radioactive materials? How does carpet glow orange? How do computers glow orange? How does furniture glow orange?

Thanks.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Would you say glowing embers in a fireplace was partially burned? Would you say glowing embers in a fireplace was burning?

Glowing embers in a fireplace are burning...that's why they're glowing. The black ash around them...is BURNED...the embers glowing orange are BURNING.

 

[Horatius]

Dose anybody know which particular office was closest to where the flowing stuff was seen?

If so, did they have anything unusual in their office that might explain this material? Like lots of glass-top desks, or pictures framed with glass covers, or something?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

"Color is accurate, there is no burning material, and the color is coming only from the glow of the material(s) in the flow"

Firstly, you can tell me how burned (as in burnt...as in black and not orange from burning) organic material glows orange. Are these radioactive materials? How does carpet glow orange? How do computers glow orange? How does furniture glow orange?

Thanks.

Read the two links I provided on Blackbody Radiation.

 

[Belz...]

I don't know why all of you find it so hard to believe that therma/ite can cut a vertical column, considering the fact that NIST even says therma/ite can cut through large steel columns.

Let me show you why:

Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building.

That's why.

You have to realize that the US government has access to technologies that are 20-30 years ahead of what the public knows about

Speculation.

Though many new technologies are kept secret, it's usually a matter of short time before they're used in other capacities.

You know the best I can do is try and give you an idea of what this therma/ite torch-like device might look like.

More speculation ? Or are you going to try and replicate the results ? Don't forget, now. There must be NO TRACE of thermite left after the fact, and this without any manipulation by you.

Might I suggest that you answer people's individual points by using the QUOTE function. This would make conversations much more effective.

Is that good enough for you?

No, because I can ALSO speculate as to what demolished the WTC, and MY solution won't be any better or worse than yours because it'll still be speculation. Like this :

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Why would it have to be held away from the steel? This clamp device...would be fastened onto the face of the steel columns.

you hypothetical device is flawed, the thermite would burn trhough the bottom of the clamp before it burns through the column

if you make the bottom thicker than the column the thermite will still widen your nozzle (by melting it) to the point where it no longer directs the reation properly

plus, IIRC thermite isnt much of an expansion reaction, so your "jet" idea wont work to well


but hey, please prove me wrong, build your device, attach it to a replica column and show how it can cut through

and be sure to patent it as it will be the first such device on record

 

[Belz...]

What does NIST have but conjecture?

Physical evidence. Gigs and gigs of video evidence, and complete lack of anything indicating thermite or thermate or termites.

They couldn't even reproduce any truss failures or floor collapses in their experiments...so they decided to use computer simulated exercises, that could give them any answer they wanted.

I guess we could add computers to the list of things you know nothing about, then.

NIST's report is built off of zero scientific evidence or findings.

Considering how your own "scientific" evidence consists of quote-mining, I'll just ignore that.

They drew conclusions and conjectures that went against everything they were seeing, including the max temp of the steel on the impact floors. Nothing was adding up for them, so they just started using virtual tools and simulations...to try and prove the collapse was possible.

Oh, please DO explain the sagging of the outer columns.

 

[babazaroni]

"Color is accurate, there is no burning material, and the color is coming only from the glow of the material(s) in the flow"

Firstly, you can tell me how burned (as in burnt...as in black and not orange from burning) organic material glows orange. Are these radioactive materials? How does carpet glow orange? How do computers glow orange? How does furniture glow orange?

Thanks.

You say it right there 28K. The color is coming from the glow of the material.

You need to call something that glows burning to keep up the semantic twisting.

Why do your arguements depend so heavily on twisted semantics.

Something is glowing, I don't care if you call it burning or burnt.

It is glowing.