WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

[Mercutio]

Ok, so if it is so nice and quiet in here, maybe you can address this post.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Thank you for actually engaging in this topic.

When the outside supports fail (you do admit they do, yes?), and a few floors as well (you do admit this also, yes?),

Actually, no I don't believe that...I believe therma/ite and explosives were used...I'm only working off of the sagging trusses, bowing outer columns premise in order to illustrate how this theory is inherently flawed...and incapable of explaining the collapse of the core columns.

A) how many floors above the failure point?

Different on each tower...I like to discuss WTC 2, which had 25 floors above the impact zone, I believe.

B) how many columns (that is, do you accept that any were damaged by the plane and fire, or do you think they were undamaged?)

Outer columns or core columns? NIST shows diagrams of where the core and perimeter columns were either severed or knocked out: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Briefing_040505_final.pdf - Pages 20-31

C) for what distance are these columns deprived of their necessary bracing by the floors and outside supports?

Not sure what you're asking here. How tall is the impact zone? Look at that .pdf from NIST. More than 80% of the impact floors' outer columns were intact, as well as 37 of the core columns on WTC 2.

D) is the mass in A static or moving?

At what point? Before the so-called, "failing of the outer columns," I would say that A is static. After the failing of outer columns, I would say that A is defying the laws of physics.

A) determines whether the columns are holding up a light, moderate, or tremendous load

The core columns after the outer columns failed? Light Load.

B) determines the strength of the thing that is holding it

Strength as in the force it would take to make the area of the 37 non-severed core columns exposed on the 6 floors of impact, buckle and snap to the side? Virtually indestructible.

C) determines the leverage the weight has (try snapping a long pencil, then try snapping a 2-inch pencil stub--hard to get the leverage to do the latter, isn't it?)

Only 6 floors are supposedly exposed by impact and failed outer columns. This doesn't leave much room for the core columns to buckle in less than a second, considering that the only weight bearing down on the core columns (after outer column failure) is from the outer columns and floors/trusses from the upper mass, which are more likely to slide down (from gravity loads) off of the 37 fully intact (floor to ceiling) core columns...than to somehow force the 37 non-severed core columns into buckling and breaking in less than a second.

D) will deliver that load evenly or unevenly upon the columns in

See C: Unevenly

 

[Spindrift]

Thank you for actually engaging in this topic.



Actually, no I don't believe that...I believe therma/ite and explosives were used...I'm only working off of the sagging trusses, bowing outer columns premise in order to illustrate how this theory is inherently flawed...and incapable of explaining the collapse of the core columns.

Let's take this one thing at a time. The topic at hand is therma/ite.

Please show how therma/ite can cut vertical beams.

If you can't then doesn't it follow that therma/ite could not have been used?

 

[28th Kingdom]

Spin,

NIST even admits therma/ite can cut large steel columns.

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns ..."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

That's without the aid of a therma/ite type torch, which could probably cut through the core columns like butter. The Stealth Bomber - and people think this therma/ite torch is the 9th wonder of the world.

 

[babazaroni]

The core columns after the outer columns failed? Light Load.

Not only is the core taking over the share of the load supported by the outer columns, it's taking the load of the outer columns as well which is massive.

Furthermore, this mass is ungainly in relation to the cross section of the core. Like balancing a box of books on your fist.

That means it's going to cause the asymetrically damaged core to shift laterally, something it was not designed to handle. As soon as it shifts, core columns will start buckling.

 

[babazaroni]

Spin,

That's without the aid of a therma/ite type torch, which could probably cut through the core columns like butter. The Stealth Bomber - and people think this therma/ite torch is the 9th wonder of the world.

And a torch requires an operator.

Do you think there was someone at each column with a torch?

 

[kookbreaker]

Spin,

NIST even admits therma/ite can cut large steel columns.

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns ..."

More dishonest quoting. Here's the whole comment, emphasis added:

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building.

Seems NIST isn't saying what 28skiddo thinks they are saying.

 

[Spindrift]

Spin,

NIST even admits therma/ite can cut large steel columns.

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns ..."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

That's without the aid of a therma/ite type torch, which could probably cut through the core columns like butter. The Stealth Bomber - and people think this therma/ite torch is the 9th wonder of the world.

You left off the rest of the quote:

Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

So you still haven't shown how therma/ite can cut vertical beams. If you have evidence of this 9th wonder of the world, please show a working example.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Actually, no I don't believe that...I believe therma/ite and explosives were used...I'm only working off of the sagging trusses, bowing outer columns premise in order to illustrate how this theory is inherently flawed...and incapable of explaining the collapse of the core columns.

you have failed to illustrate, other than your own argument from incredulity, that the damaged core structure would be capable of supporting twice the designed load of an undamaged core

Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

ive bolded the key part of the statement, please elaborate on how this could be done

 

[Mercutio]

Thank you for actually engaging in this topic.



Actually, no I don't believe that...I believe therma/ite and explosives were used...I'm only working off of the sagging trusses, bowing outer columns premise in order to illustrate how this theory is inherently flawed...and incapable of explaining the collapse of the core columns.

Whether cut by thermite or not (of course, you have no evidence for thermite or explosives or any delivery system, fuses, detonators, etc., and copious evidence against) is irrelevant; what is clear from any of the videos is that the outer supports give way. That is the time I am asking about.

Different on each tower...I like to discuss WTC 2, which had 25 floors above the impact zone, I believe.

Fine. The questions do apply to each, and differently to each. The answers are (or should be) consistent with how much time elapsed between impact and collapse. Of course, if explosives were used, there need be no relation between these answers and that time; if explosives were used, one wonders why there was any delay at all.

Outer columns or core columns? NIST shows diagrams of where the core and perimeter columns were either severed or knocked out: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Briefing_040505_final.pdf - Pages 20-31

Core columns, at this point. Remember, we are speaking of the time after the failure of the outer columns. This is the part that is giving you trouble.

Not sure what you're asking here. How tall is the impact zone? Look at that .pdf from NIST. More than 80% of the impact floors' outer columns were intact, as well as 37 of the core columns on WTC 2.

Yes, how tall is the impact zone--but more to the point, how tall (or lengthy, or whatever, is the span of unsupported-by-floor-or-outer-column core columns? The "popsicle stick" holding up the top after the outer columns fail.

At what point? Before the so-called, "failing of the outer columns," I would say that A is static. After the failing of outer columns, I would say that A is defying the laws of physics.

How so? It appears from the video that A is acting exactly like I would have expected. (but then, that is why I am asking you.) How, specifically, do you think it is defying the laws of physics?

The core columns after the outer columns failed? Light Load.

OK. I disagree strongly here, but your answer explains a lot.

Strength as in the force it would take to make the area of the 37 non-severed core columns exposed on the 6 floors of impact, buckle and snap to the side? Virtually indestructible.

Again I disagree strongly here. The top, no longer stabilized by the outer columns, is putting incredible stress on these columns at this point.

Only 6 floors are supposedly exposed by impact and failed outer columns. This doesn't leave much room for the core columns to buckle in less than a second, considering that the only weight bearing down on the core columns (after outer column failure) is from the outer columns and floors/trusses from the upper mass, which are more likely to slide down (from gravity loads) off of the 37 fully intact (floor to ceiling) core columns...than to somehow force the 37 non-severed core columns into buckling and breaking in less than a second.

6 floors? And you chose 25 floors balanced on top of that? Again, I will disagree strongly with your assessment that this "doesn't leave much room"; I would say that 6 floors' worth of play is enough to play havoc with the core columns, even if they were intact.

See C: Unevenly

Finally we agree. And an uneven load will put uneven stress on the core columns. A very slight tilt will distribute the immense load on a few columns disproportionately; if these fail, that weight (and more) is shifted to the remaining columns, virtually instantaneously.

If you could expand on your answers on the parts where we disagree, that would be great. I have done so at places, and am willing to do more, but only if you are serious.

 

[CurtC]

More dishonest quoting. Here's the whole comment, emphasis added:

"Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building.

Seems NIST isn't saying what 28skiddo thinks they are saying.

I was about to post the same thing, but you beat me to it. More dishonest quote mining by 28 IQ.

 

[CurtC]

Oh, and 28 IQ, Killtown used to update his signature with the names of all the people he had on his ignore list. That might be helpful for you to do.

 

[28th Kingdom]

you have failed to illustrate, other than your own argument from incredulity, that the damaged core structure would be capable of supporting twice the designed load of an undamaged core

Because that's just non-sense. There is no twice the load. I know NIST says it, but you don't even understand what they're talking about. Twice the load of what? Twice the load of 25 floors compared against 75+ undamaged floors?

Why would the top of the building structure be able to withstand more pressure and weight from the upper mass than the 37 non-severed core columns which are planted in the ground and have the support of 75+ undamaged floors.

Why wouldn't the upper mass put pressure on the top of the structure where the core columns meet in the center...causing the upper mass to fall down and around the core columns (core columns pushing through the top of the falling upper mass) instead of the upper mass weight causing the 37 non-severed core columns to buckle in the span of a second.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Because that's just non-sense. There is no twice the load. I know NIST says it, but you don't even understand what they're talking about. Twice the load of what? Twice the load of 25 floors compared against 75+ undamaged floors?

Why would the top of the building structure be able to withstand more pressure and weight from the upper mass than the 37 non-severed core columns which are planted in the ground and have the support of 75+ undamaged floors.

Why wouldn't the upper mass put pressure on the top of the structure where the core columns meet in the center...causing the upper mass to fall down and around the core columns (core columns pushing through the top of the falling upper mass) instead of the upper mass weight causing the 37 non-severed core columns to buckle in the span of a second.

the core columns tapered towards the top, since the columns on the 80th floor only need to support the weight of the 30 floors above them as opposed to the 110 floors the columns on the first floor are supporting they made them smaller (saves money)

the core columns at the 80th floor were designed to take about half the gravity load of the top floors, upon the failure of the perimeter columns they were forced to bear ALL of the gravity load of the top floors (twice their design specs) in addition to being already damaged by the planes

 

[Spindrift]

Please finish the thermite discussion first and then we can go on to other things.

You still haven't shown how therma/ite can cut vertical beams. If you have evidence of this 9th wonder of the world, please show a working example.

(I appeal to everyone to stick to this single subject until 28K either shows us how thermite can cut vertical beams with a working example or he admits it can't happen. Do not let him change topics by engaging him in other things until we get through this. Pretty please!)

 

[babazaroni]

Why would the top of the building structure be able to withstand more pressure and weight from the upper mass than the 37 non-severed core columns which are planted in the ground and have the support of 75+ undamaged floors.

You forget, the gauge of the steel narrowed the further up the structure it went.

This means it could support less, since, well it only had to support the mass above it.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Show me the video of the clear as day buckling and failure of the outer columns.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Please finish the thermite discussion first and then we can go on to other things.

You still haven't shown how therma/ite can cut vertical beams. If you have evidence of this 9th wonder of the world, please show a working example.

(I appeal to everyone to stick to this single subject until 28K either shows us how thermite can cut vertical beams with a working example or he admits it can't happen. Do not let him change topics by engaging him in other things until we get through this. Pretty please!)

will do, but it doesnt work, go back and see how many times i asked him about the passengers on the planes he claimed were drones

Show me the video of the clear as day buckling and failure of the outer columns.

show me the video of the clear as day thermite cutting through a vertical column

 

[Spindrift]

Show me the video of the clear as day buckling and failure of the outer columns.

Please finish the thermite discussion first and then we can go on to other things.

You still haven't shown how therma/ite can cut vertical beams. If you have evidence of this 9th wonder of the world, please show a working example.

(I appeal to everyone to stick to this single subject until 28K either shows us how thermite can cut vertical beams with a working example or he admits it can't happen. Do not let him change topics by engaging him in other things until we get through this. Pretty please!)

 

[babazaroni]

Show me the video of the clear as day buckling and failure of the outer columns.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5405555553528290546&q=WTC&pl=true