WTC collapses - Layman's terms again

i think i get what you mean.

what i have more trouble with in the collapses. is the uppwer tower part.

it was the same spring/tower. but for some reason, the uppwer parts lowest floor was able to destroy all the other floors below it, and after that the upper part destroyed itself.
in reality, the upper part would start destroying tself when it hits the lower tower, oc also the lower towers upper floors will be destroyed.

but my point is in layman terms. actually we have 2 bog energy "consumers" lower tower and upper tower. but mr Bazant only uses the lower tower. the upper tower is for some magical reason undestructable in the crush down phase.
and when you take a look to videos, you can clearly see that the lowest floor of the upper falling tower was in no way undestructable, it was one of the first things that was destroyed.

Yes, I agree with all this. In my layman opinion (geez, I keep repeating that but I don't want to give the impression that I actually know what I talk about) both parts would start taking a beating in the collapse process, but it really doesn't matter. Even if the upper block breaks into smaller pieces they still have the same weight and are still coming down, being able to crush things below.

A similar claim is often made by twoofers when it comes to Pentagon. I've often heard the question "How could the fragile nose cone of the plane penetrate 5 walls (or whatever the number was) before breaking?" like it was necessary to get that sort of damage. We've tried to point out that the nose cone probably got destroyed in the impact with the first wall but so many things containing so much momentum would act a vit like a wave of liquid simply breaking in the house.

Isn't Bazant just simplifying the calculations? Or did I jumo in water way to deep for my own safety?
 
it was the same spring/tower.

No, it was not. Same as in part of the same building but different in as size and weight. Also different as in it was moving and the bottom part was not. Also not the same as in the top part was free to move and not pinned like the bottom part. So all in all you are incorrect.


DC said:
but for some reason, the uppwer parts lowest floor was able to destroy all the other floors below it, and after that the upper part destroyed itself.

Incorrect. The upper part added to the collapsing parts of the lower block then continued to destroy more of the lower block, adding to the mass of the upper block.

DC said:
in reality, the upper part would start destroying tself when it hits the lower tower, oc also the lower towers upper floors will be destroyed.

Yes

DC said:
but my point is in layman terms. actually we have 2 bog energy "consumers" lower tower and upper tower. but mr Bazant only uses the lower tower. the upper tower is for some magical reason undestructable in the crush down phase.
and when you take a look to videos, you can clearly see that the lowest floor of the upper falling tower was in no way undestructable, it was one of the first things that was destroyed.

It still makes no difference to whether the tower colapse would have stalled. There was enough energy to destroy the rest of the building along with the upper part. Check Gregory Urich paper and see if you think he is wrong.
 
No, it was not. Same as in part of the same building but different in as size and weight. Also different as in it was moving and the bottom part was not. Also not the same as in the top part was free to move and not pinned like the bottom part. So all in all you are incorrect.




Incorrect. The upper part added to the collapsing parts of the lower block then continued to destroy more of the lower block, adding to the mass of the upper block.



Yes



It still makes no difference to whether the tower colapse would have stalled. There was enough energy to destroy the rest of the building along with the upper part. Check Gregory Urich paper and see if you think he is wrong.
so when you cut a spring into 2 parts, a shorter and a longer one, will this make the shorter one a solid body?


Why was the upper part with the thinner steel able to crush even the very low floors with alot thicker steel columns without beeing destroyed in the crush down phase in Bazants pseudoscience paper?
 
....

It still makes no difference to whether the tower colapse would have stalled. There was enough energy to destroy the rest of the building along with the upper part. Check Gregory Urich paper and see if you think he is wrong.

lol you didnt even read urichs paper. i tested that, found out you didnt and you also did admit it. did you red it now?

what is LS-DYNA 2003?
 
so when you cut a spring into 2 parts, a shorter and a longer one, will this make the shorter one a solid body?

Did I claim so? No, I never. try again


DC said:
Why was the upper part with the thinner steel able to crush even the very low floors with alot thicker steel columns without beeing destroyed in the crush down phase in Bazants pseudoscience paper?

Check the OP, this is not about the paper this is about collapse in laymans terms. Take it to your pseudo thread
 
lol you didnt even read urichs paper. i tested that, found out you didnt and you also did admit it. did you red it now?

Now you are lying. Show me where I admitted I had not read GU paper and where you showed it. If you cannot I expect an apology.

I will save you the trouble trying to find it.

Funk said:
I have seen his calcs and his postings here

This is what I said. Now show me how this is a statement by me saying I have not read his paper. I have seen and read his paper and I have seen his threads here. They invariably get spoiled by Heiwa. If you misinterpreted that this meant I had not read GU, then you are wrong.

DC said:
what is LS-DYNA 2003?

NIST used it for simulation/analysis, but you knew that and tried to play a silly game with me because you did not think I knew it.
 
Now you are lying. Show me where I admitted I had not read GU paper and where you showed it. If you cannot I expect an apology.

I will save you the trouble trying to find it.



This is what I said. Now show me how this is a statement by me saying I have not read his paper. I have seen and read his paper and I have seen his threads here. They invariably get spoiled by Heiwa. If you misinterpreted that this meant I had not read GU, then you are wrong.



NIST used it for simulation/analysis, but you knew that and tried to play a silly game with me because you did not think I knew it.

Originally Posted by DC
let me ask you one question.
did you read Gregory H. Urich's "peer-reviewed paper"?

I have seen his calcs and his postings here. I like to read them until heiwa the incompetant spoils the threads. Do you disagree with his calcs? If so, show us why? Again you run away from a question and try to turn it back to me. Why is that?

you didnt read it or evaded the question?
 
Such software does not exist. What you have to do is to first model the complete structure with FEM/beams and then decide the local failures step by step and redo the FEM analysis at every step. An iteration of kind.
If at a certain step you find that something free falls you have to include that in the analysis and apply the relevant loads (where they start again).

Many (10?) years ago the the Japanese did this with two bodies; one (A) a very solid bow of a ship (shell plates, strong horizontal webs, transverse frames) driven by a constant force, the other (B) the vertical plate side of another vessel and its internal structure. When A hit B, A penetrated a fair distance into B causing plenty of structural damages but A was finally arrested a bit into B. The whole thing maybe took 7 seconds full scale. In order to analyse this very non-linear collapse the Japanese split it into 700 steps, analysed the damage at every step, adjusted the FEM model + loads accordingly, and calculated the next step, etc. It took them 3 weeks with plenty of PCs running in parallell to do the analysis. And then a full scale test was done (real ship bow A hitting real ship side B) for comparison. It was quite good comparison. The vertical side of B lacked initially resistance to withstand the solid bow structure of A but after a while the assembly ran out of energy.


Heiwa, this is the most cogent point I've ever seen you make here. So, I think it's worth comparing the parameters of the ship collision scenarios you're describing, as compared to the WTC tower collapses.

I believe the tests you're referring to, where full-scale tests were corroborated with detailed computer modeling, are the same ones being described here: (Source: http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5798&page=243)

Verification of analytical procedures using scale-model tests and actual collision data—where available—is a necessary part of the approach because of the inherent difficulty in modeling highly contorted collapse modes and the relatively crude criteria that are still employed to model plate- and weld-fracture during crushing. Full-scale collision tests have been conducted using two inland waterway tankers, each of approximately 1,000-metric ton displacement, in a collaborative effort with support from a number of Dutch and Japanese groups (Vredeveldt and Wevers, 1992, 1995; Wevers et al., 1994). These tests were accompanied by detailed numerical simulations (Lenselink and Thung, 1992). A series of four impacts were conducted wherein one tanker fitted with a nominally rigid bow struck the other tanker's side at 90 degrees. Two of the impacts were against side sections of the ship having a single hull, whereas in the other two collisions the tanker was struck in side sections having a double hull. Data were recorded on penetration depth, collision force, strains in critical locations, and all six rigid-body motions of each of the ships. In addition, observations on cracking, which largely occurred along weld lines, were reported. The accompanying numerical simulations were successful in replicating major features of the collision, with the exception of crack patterns. The experimental data will be available for calibration of analysis methods in the future. Among the conclusions drawn from the joint Dutch-Japanese research were these: fracture initiation is dominated by the welds and is poorly characterized; the hydrodynamics of both ships during collision must be modeled correctly if penetration and collision forces are to be predicted accurately; and a sizable fraction of the energy dissipated in a collision goes into wave generation.


I'm making a few assumptions on the basis of the tests being designed to simulate realistic ship-ship collision scenarios. If you any of my quantitative assumptions are invalid in a way that would affect the results of the comparison that follows, please provide a rationale and a more suitable value.

I'm assuming that the T-bone collision described in the passage above takes place with both ships steaming at full cruising speed. This would appear to be close to the worst-case. (The tests were probably conducted with the target ship stationary instead, but I'll allow the extra kinetic energy of having both ships in motion. A collision closer to head-on might increase the kinetic energy available, but would not appear to greatly increase the amount expended in the collision, as the ships would tend to slide past each other.)

Just to help visualize the kind of collision we're talking about, here's a 1,000 ton tanker for sale, with photos: http://commercial.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=77620

I'm using 15 knots (7.22 m/sec) as the ships' speed. This is slightly above the typical speed of large tankers on the high seas, so it's probably a significant overestimate for a small tanker navigating in inland waterways. However, if the testers were testing worst case scenarios, they might have had the ships cruising at full throttle. So, the magnitude of the relative velocity for the T-bone collision geometry is 7.2 * sqrt(2) = 10.2 m/sec

Mass of the ships is given; it's the same as their displacement, 1,000,000 Kg.

Assuming both are under full power and remain so for the duration of the collision, there's also additional energy input equal to no more than the power of the ships' engines times the duration of the event. I haven't found a reference yet for what a typical engine power of such a tanker might be, so I'm estimating it using an Admiralty Coefficient ( = displacement in tons ^ (2/3) * speed in knots ^ 3 / horsepower) of 450, which gives me 750 horsepower. Let's again overestimate for the worst case, say 1,000 hp instead.

For a tower, the mass is 350,000,000 Kg, and approximate height of the center of gravity (lower than the center height, to account for the heavier framing lower down) is 175m. In contrast with my assumptions for the ships, that's a conservative estimate.

SHIP COLLISION

Starting kinetic energy: .5 * m * v^2 = 52,000,000 Joules

Gravitational potential energy: negligible (and no mechanism for converting gpe into forward momentum contributing to the collision)

Additional energy from the ships' engines, for the collision duration: 7 seconds * 1000 hoursepower (746000 J/sec) * 2 ships = 10,450,000 Joules

TOTAL ENERGY AVAILABLE: 62,450,000 Joules

TOWER COLLAPSE

Starting kinetic energy: zero

Gravitational potential energy: m * g * hcg = (approx) 600,000,000,000 Joules

TOTAL ENERGY AVAILABLE: 600,000,000,000 Joules

That's a little under ten thousand times as much energy available to drive the collision in the towers as in your colliding ships.

If we consider only the potential energy of the upper blocks at the start of the collapses, we're still on the order of a thousand times the energy as in your colliding ships.

Do you think that if you put 1000 times more energy into your ramming ship -- say, by increasing its speed to about 475 knots -- it would still "come to rest" in the other ship?

Not only that, but for the colliding ships, only a portion of the kinetic energy has to be expended in destruction of the structures. The ships are likely still moving at the end of the collision, so some of the kinetic energy is still there. The towers, on the other hand, must come completely to rest for the collision to be over; the lower structures are pinned against the ground. Also, as the passage above notes, for the ships "a sizable fraction of the energy dissipated in a collision goes into wave generation." This represents a significant energy dissipation mechanism that the towers didn't have. The ship collision is taking place in a giant fluid shock absorber.

Does this help you to understand why your intuition about what should have happened to the towers, based on what happens to colliding ships, is unreliable at best?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Heiwa, this is the most cogent point I've ever seen you make here. So, I think it's worth comparing the parameters of the ship collision scenarios you're describing, as compared to the WTC tower collapses.

I believe the tests you're referring to, where full-scale tests were corroborated with detailed computer modeling, are the same ones being described here: (Source: http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5798&page=243)

(snip energy stuff )
...
Myriad
An additional point--
The two ships remain essentially intact. No attempt to track all the pieces was done--
yet Heiwa insists that NIST should have done it for the WTC I and II--with millions of particles in collisions too numerous to mention, post initiation...
 
Neither tower was constructed like a spring, therefore neither behaved like a spring. Please, let go of the spring analogy, it is useless.

its not about a spring, also a WTC tower, when you cut it in 2 no part will turn into a "solid".
 
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But the key question I'm going after, would floor 25 experience the same level of impact in the moment of collapse as the impact zone?

Sorry, I didn't fully understand your question the first time I read it.

No, the lower floors would not experience the same amount of force during the initial failure, because the building was designed to translate stress horizontally--as demonstrated by how the jetsam sprays out to the side at each failure.

It is not the lower floors that support the upper floors. It is the shell, anchored in the foundation, held rigid by each floor, that holds the structure together.
 
Originally Posted by DC
let me ask you one question.
did you read Gregory H. Urich's "peer-reviewed paper"?

I have seen his calcs and his postings here. I like to read them until heiwa the incompetant spoils the threads. Do you disagree with his calcs? If so, show us why? Again you run away from a question and try to turn it back to me. Why is that?

you didnt read it or evaded the question?

I have seen his calcs therefore I have read his paper. It is not my fault you cannot understand that fact. Now apologize for saying I had not read it. You are in no postion to accuse anyone of avoidance.
 
An additional point--
The two ships remain essentially intact. No attempt to track all the pieces was done--
yet Heiwa insists that NIST should have done it for the WTC I and II--with millions of particles in collisions too numerous to mention, post initiation...

The comparison is not bad. Re WTC 1 you would expect the upper, light weight block, if free falling and if impacting (very, very serious local failures to say the least to produce these two unlikely events), to be sliced by the lower structure columns due to gravity forces. Two walls of the upper block, the ones outside the lower structure, would then shear off from the upper block and maybe drop to the ground and the rest would drop into the lower structure. The upper block would tilt at this time and its floors would just get entangled with the floors of the lower structure - all due to gravity. And the collapse would be arrested. Happens every time there are local failures in steel structures. Should have happened on 911. And not this sequence of explosions and big parts flying sideways and floors getting pulverized that we see. It is not a gravity only dirven collapse. Extra energy is supplied to break the columns sideways every 4th or 8th floor or so. To assist the gravity forces.
Anybody suggesting that the upper block is intact during the the complete 'push down' and then lands on the rubble and is destroyed in a 'push up' afterward doesn't know anything about how steel structures behave after local failures and only subject to gravity force. But maybe they are good US patriots? They believe anything.

Read my little article about it at http://heiwaco.tripod.nist3/htm .

And pls do not just post a message that I am stupid, an idiot, etc. Of course I am that to challenge the official explanations of the US government. It is not very popular. Very unpatriotic. But healthy. Good for the mind. And the right thing to do.
 
The comparison is not bad.


The comparison is ridiculous, as I showed with my energy calculations above.

You're talking about tests done with ships whose lengths are less than the width of the towers. If you could get it through the doors, a 1000-ton tanker would fit inside the lobby. If the core weren't in the way, you could put four of them side by side in there.

The energy of the ship collision test you described is one ten thousandth, .01%, of the potential energy of a tower. It's way less than a thousandth of the potential energy of just the upper section of the North tower above the impact zone.

A tennis ball falling a meter onto your head (.56 Joules) would not injure a person. A 125-pound weight falling a meter onto your head (560 Joules) would cause serious injury at a minimum, and a .45 caliber bullet fired point blank at your head (also 560 Joules) would kill a person instantly. A 1000x difference in energy makes a big difference.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
The comparison is not bad. Re WTC 1 you would expect the upper, light weight block, if free falling and if impacting (very, very serious local failures to say the least to produce these two unlikely events), to be sliced by the lower structure columns due to gravity forces. Two walls of the upper block, the ones outside the lower structure, would then shear off from the upper block and maybe drop to the ground and the rest would drop into the lower structure. The upper block would tilt at this time and its floors would just get entangled with the floors of the lower structure - all due to gravity. And the collapse would be arrested. Happens every time there are local failures in steel structures. Should have happened on 911. And not this sequence of explosions and big parts flying sideways and floors getting pulverized that we see. It is not a gravity only dirven collapse. Extra energy is supplied to break the columns sideways every 4th or 8th floor or so. To assist the gravity forces.
Anybody suggesting that the upper block is intact during the the complete 'push down' and then lands on the rubble and is destroyed in a 'push up' afterward doesn't know anything about how steel structures behave after local failures and only subject to gravity force. But maybe they are good US patriots? They believe anything.

Read my little article about it at http://heiwaco.tripod.nist3/htm .

And pls do not just post a message that I am stupid, an idiot, etc. Of course I am that to challenge the official explanations of the US government. It is not very popular. Very unpatriotic. But healthy. Good for the mind. And the right thing to do.


No one here knows what your IQ is. Manifestly, it is not high, as you have demonstrated staggering incompetence in the design of large buildings. You claim to be an engineer, but the real engineers here have frequently exposed your errors in thinking and poor grasp of the fundamentals of "your" profession. Pretending that the conclusions reached by private researchers somehow involve the government is yet another example of the dishonesty of a representative of a movement based on dishonesty.

If you want to "challenge" NIST, why not call Mike Newman and tell him about all the errors made by the 1,000 NIST scientists and engineers, ALL of them vastly more knowledgeable than yourself? Oh, that's right--you don't actually challenge anything.
 
Anybody suggesting that the upper block is intact during the the complete 'push down' and then lands on the rubble and is destroyed in a 'push up' afterward doesn't know anything about how steel structures behave after local failures and only subject to gravity force. But maybe they are good US patriots? They believe anything.

NO ONE HAS EVER SUGGESTED THAT
 
Heiwa:

It is interesting to compare ship collisions with the "internal" collisions involved in the WTC collapses if both events are considered to be collisions of two initially independent steel frame structures.

Minorsky's method, which I am sure you are familiar with, relates the energy absorbed in the collision of a ship, (with for example, an oil derik), to the volume of the damaged structural steel.

I have tried to use Minorsky's approach on the Twin Towers, but I am not sure if it is valid because ship collisions are governed exclusively by inertial effects, while the self-destruction of the WTC clearly involved inertial AND gravity effects. In the end, gravity overwhelms everything.
 
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