WTC collapses - Layman's terms again
- Thread starter Heiwa
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DC
Banned
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oh i see it is a money issue now. what a stupid answer.
will you pay haiwa to do the calculations you ppl want?
You have misunderstood. Sliced floors (loose masses) of upper block and lower structure only fall vertically down on the floor below as shown in the figure of my article and explained there. No loose masses are pushing out against any columns - only, due to assymetrical failures, the upper block (most of it is intact - no loose parts) tilts against two walls of the lower structure that restrain/arrest it there. There is no vertical loads on those walls. Should be clear from the article, but I might add some clarifications.
I won't, no. I don't care about what Heiwa believes, only about the poor saps taken in by his beliefs.
Like everything to do with the 'truth' movement, you guys have to prove your assertions, not the other way around. The world currently accepts the narrative provided by NIST. I don't have to do anything to prove that narrative to you.
But don't you think that you should actually go and find out the answers to all the questions you have, preferably from non-anonymous internet posters you mistrust in any case?
What is so difficult about speaking face to face with a real Structural Engineer? I am only assuming that you would have to pay a fee, but you never know, you might find one in your local phone book who is only too willing to give up a couple of hours for you to visit his/her office and get the education on this subject you desperately need.
You could pretend to be an author researching a work of fiction or just a concerned citizen who has genuine questions about the collapse of the wtc towers and would like an unbiased explanation of the design, performance and collapse mechanism witnessed on 9-11. I reckon a couple of hours would be reasonable.
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No, it is reality. The question has already been answered many times. Pls read the thread from start.
Actually, all technical questions raised in this thread have been answered and no faults in the article found. You confirm the opinions of my peer reviewers.
Maybe it is time for other matters?
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westprog
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why do you ppl always need some experts?
Hear hear! I'm sick of these gutless cowards who insist on going to the doctor when they need an operation, or hire some stranger to rewire their house or defend them in court.
The strong man does everything for himself, from growing his own food to sewing his own shroud.
Hear hear! I'm sick of these gutless cowards who insist on going to the doctor when they need an operation, or hire some stranger to rewire their house or defend them in court.
The strong man does everything for himself, from growing his own food to sewing his own shroud.
But it took NIST several years just to explain some local falures (that are not even proven) and they forgot to analyse the alleged collapse mechanism and that collapse arrest would occur. That is why I write my article. To assist NIST, actually. But to be courteous I say I do it for children.
This is the end for this time, gentlefolks + others.
No Heiwa, NIST carried out an investigation and analysis of the collapse and tested the design and the components to explain fully how the collapse of the towers initiated.
The 'truth' movement has done bugger all to prove that this hypothesis is impossible but instead have used their common sense and gut feeling and partial knowledge of technical subjects in order make complete and utter fools of themselves.
The 'truth' movement has done bugger all to prove that this hypothesis is impossible but instead have used their common sense and gut feeling and partial knowledge of technical subjects in order make complete and utter fools of themselves.
Disbelief
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What I don't understand is the utter arrogance of so many in the TM. Heiwa, you are another example of a truther who shrugs off questions with silly responses or you avoid them completely. After having your paper ripped apart, you press onward like everyone agrees with your dumb conclusions.
Also, I think I have figured out your unnamed peer reviewers. Since you wrote it for kids, it obviously is a bunch of kindergarteners. You should have just used crayons anyway.
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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The first floor down takes the impact of the upper mass.
The second floor down takes the impact of the upper mass + the first floor down.
The third floor down takes the impact of the upper mass + the first floor down + the second floor down...
And so on...
So to claim that 90 stories were crushed by 20 stories is a total lie... the lobby, for example was crushed by 110 stories.
Drudgewire
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Genesis 1:11-12
I've been meaning to mention that Heiwa's paper is no more "written for kids" than it is "written by a competent engineer." Writing for kids doesn't require the same level of training as structural engineering, but that doesn't mean that anyone can start doing it and expect to do an adequate job without some training, and/or lots of practice.
It's essential that the training and the practice includes plenty of honest feedback from actual kids.*
Evidently Heiwa lacks any such training or practice in the craft. There is nothing about the text that makes it accessible to kids, or that will make kids want to read it voluntarily on their own, or make educators want to assign it.
It's not OK for a chef to serve pancakes that are burned on the outside and runny in the middle, just because he's "cooking for kids." Everyone knows this, right? So why do people think that bad writing full of plodding language, labored non sequitor arguments, obfuscation, and strange archaic phrasing, is OK if it's "written for kids"?
Respectfully,
Myriad
*And keep in mind, "Yes, yes, it's very good. I liked it. Can I please go home now? I'm scared." does not count as useful feedback.
It's essential that the training and the practice includes plenty of honest feedback from actual kids.*
Evidently Heiwa lacks any such training or practice in the craft. There is nothing about the text that makes it accessible to kids, or that will make kids want to read it voluntarily on their own, or make educators want to assign it.
It's not OK for a chef to serve pancakes that are burned on the outside and runny in the middle, just because he's "cooking for kids." Everyone knows this, right? So why do people think that bad writing full of plodding language, labored non sequitor arguments, obfuscation, and strange archaic phrasing, is OK if it's "written for kids"?
Respectfully,
Myriad
*And keep in mind, "Yes, yes, it's very good. I liked it. Can I please go home now? I'm scared." does not count as useful feedback.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Well put! The funny thing is this is clearly seen in all of the videos. I find it hard to imagine what a video showing the top destroying the whole bottom at once would look like. A huge explosion I would imagine.
stateofgrace
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After seeing the complete and utter rubbish posted from an "engineer " who claims to now have a peer reviewed paper ,in the last few hours, so do I ( not as though I ever did disagree ).
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Heiwa: What about WTC 2?
Heiwa:
I know you have tended to focus only on the collapse of WTC 1, but I would ask you to take a moment to consider WTC 2. One of the best videos of the collapse of WTC 2 , (pointed out by poster Einsteen over at PhysOrg) may be seen at:
http://baldur.globalsymmetry.com/fact911/wtc2-corner/911.wtc.2.demolition.north.very.close.mpg
I highly recommend that you watch this video, which shows the collapse of WTC 2 looking at the north face of the building; and when you watch it, pause every half second or so to see exactly what’s happening. The collapse starts at the NE corner of WTC 2 near floor 81-82. What is amazing about this video is that it clearly shows a kink developing at the NE corner (near floor 82); a line of inward folding of the perimeter columns that moves rapidly across the north face as the upper section tilts to the east.
Another interesting feature of the collapse of WTC 2 is that the upper block is already leaning by about 2 degrees before any real movement is discernable. However, about 1 sec into the video rotation of the upper block becomes quite apparent. At 3 sec into the video, or 2 sec into the collapse, the angle of tilt is about 5 degrees and a kink is fully developed across the north face as a line of bowed/failing columns starting at the 82nd floor and ending at the 84th floor, i.e, the kink is NOT horizontal! This also shows that the hinge about which the upper block rotates is located at about the 84th floor. At 4 sec, or 3 sec into the collapse, the tilt is almost 10 degrees and a pronounced misalignment of the columns at floor 82 of the NE corner is clearly seen.
Heiwa, all of these features are NOT what I would expect for a controlled demolition! I doubt very much that a would-be demolitionist would want the upper section of WTC 2 to tilt. Nor could he predict or control the kink that formed in the north face. (And please note that the upper section of WTC 1 also tilted before it dropped.) And also observe that the upper section of WTC 2 was misaligned by over 1 meter as a result of the 10 degree tipping just a few seconds into the collapse. This means that the east face perimeter wall columns BELOW the 82nd floor were pushed outwards by the descending upper block and could NOT resist the collapse. Thus the lower perimeter columns failed by shearing of the bolts and welds, not by compressive buckling.
May I suggest that you read chapter 9 of NIST NCSTAR 1-5A and consider how the collapse of WTC 2 was initiated by the inward bowing of the perimeter columns along the entire east face of the building centered near floors 81 -82. There is also a nice IR image (Figure 9-22) that shows there was considerable heating of the perimeter columns along the entire east face and half way across the north face within 30 minutes of the aircraft impacts. The failure of the heat-weakened east face columns ~ 9:58 precipitated the rotation/collapse of the upper section of WTC 2 and is entirely consistent with what is observed in the video discussed above. And by the way, after about 3.5 seconds of rotation, the hinge at the 84th floor obviously fails and a downward motion of the entire upper block begins. At this point, the rapid buildup of momentum and the pull of gravity ensure the total destruction of the building as described by Bazant, Greening and others …...
Heiwa:
I know you have tended to focus only on the collapse of WTC 1, but I would ask you to take a moment to consider WTC 2. One of the best videos of the collapse of WTC 2 , (pointed out by poster Einsteen over at PhysOrg) may be seen at:
http://baldur.globalsymmetry.com/fact911/wtc2-corner/911.wtc.2.demolition.north.very.close.mpg
I highly recommend that you watch this video, which shows the collapse of WTC 2 looking at the north face of the building; and when you watch it, pause every half second or so to see exactly what’s happening. The collapse starts at the NE corner of WTC 2 near floor 81-82. What is amazing about this video is that it clearly shows a kink developing at the NE corner (near floor 82); a line of inward folding of the perimeter columns that moves rapidly across the north face as the upper section tilts to the east.
Another interesting feature of the collapse of WTC 2 is that the upper block is already leaning by about 2 degrees before any real movement is discernable. However, about 1 sec into the video rotation of the upper block becomes quite apparent. At 3 sec into the video, or 2 sec into the collapse, the angle of tilt is about 5 degrees and a kink is fully developed across the north face as a line of bowed/failing columns starting at the 82nd floor and ending at the 84th floor, i.e, the kink is NOT horizontal! This also shows that the hinge about which the upper block rotates is located at about the 84th floor. At 4 sec, or 3 sec into the collapse, the tilt is almost 10 degrees and a pronounced misalignment of the columns at floor 82 of the NE corner is clearly seen.
Heiwa, all of these features are NOT what I would expect for a controlled demolition! I doubt very much that a would-be demolitionist would want the upper section of WTC 2 to tilt. Nor could he predict or control the kink that formed in the north face. (And please note that the upper section of WTC 1 also tilted before it dropped.) And also observe that the upper section of WTC 2 was misaligned by over 1 meter as a result of the 10 degree tipping just a few seconds into the collapse. This means that the east face perimeter wall columns BELOW the 82nd floor were pushed outwards by the descending upper block and could NOT resist the collapse. Thus the lower perimeter columns failed by shearing of the bolts and welds, not by compressive buckling.
May I suggest that you read chapter 9 of NIST NCSTAR 1-5A and consider how the collapse of WTC 2 was initiated by the inward bowing of the perimeter columns along the entire east face of the building centered near floors 81 -82. There is also a nice IR image (Figure 9-22) that shows there was considerable heating of the perimeter columns along the entire east face and half way across the north face within 30 minutes of the aircraft impacts. The failure of the heat-weakened east face columns ~ 9:58 precipitated the rotation/collapse of the upper section of WTC 2 and is entirely consistent with what is observed in the video discussed above. And by the way, after about 3.5 seconds of rotation, the hinge at the 84th floor obviously fails and a downward motion of the entire upper block begins. At this point, the rapid buildup of momentum and the pull of gravity ensure the total destruction of the building as described by Bazant, Greening and others …...
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aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
I understand completely. If I were you, I would want to change the subject at this point in time, as well.
Drudgewire
Critical Doofus
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